Any update on Appleseed ban?

Aksarben said:
This issue with the Smith & Wesson 15-22 is not an isolated case. The article from The Firearms Blog indicates that there have been multiple incidents of issues. Enough so that they are banned from the Appleseed events. Ref: BREAKING: S&W M&P 15/22 Rifles BANNED at Appleseed Events Due to Run Away and Out of Battery Firing - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

I think it is rare, but something that S&W really needs to address. Someone has already been injured and required medical care.
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We have been through this before in another thread and my opinion of the affair was that Appleseed threw S&W 'under the bus' for their bad practice and solely because someone was injured....OOB can and will happen with any firearm, we all know of someone with a story about nearly losing an eye, as for the full auto issue stated by Appleseed, well, I only wish I knew what the 'instructor' did or if he'd post a youtube vid, showing us how he caused it to go full auto. ;)

If a company as large as S&W thought or knew that there was a problem with their rifles from production and did nothing then their lack of action could land them in some pretty serious trouble, should anyone actually have a serious injury or death. After all, the Appleseed decree is a pretty damning indictment, they are either ignoring it at their peril or see no base in the accusation that the 15-22 is an unsafe firearm.
The complete lack of acknowledgement or response from S&W makes me think it is the latter.
 
This post is the first I've ever even heard of this "issue". I have one of the older style "original" 15-22's and after over 1,500 rounds through it, for the exception of 3 Remington Thunderbolt "failure to fire", I've had zero issues out of it.

P.S. I put those same three in my revolver and they still wouldn't fire so, it was the ammo..........not the gun.
 
While we don't have the numbers here the 15-22 has a good following in our IDPA based 3-gun matches. Personally I have fired thousands of rounds through my 15-22 and I've seen others do the same. I had one OOB (suspected) but have had zero issues besides. A couple of FTF, FTE and some duds, but not much more than expected from a rimfire, and less than some of the 10/22s I've competed against.

With the numbers of 15-22s in the US surely if this was a real problem they would be experienced lefr right and center, not at one or two select Appleseed events, where people of questionable skill have done on-range gunsmithing?
 
Aksarben said:
This issue with the Smith & Wesson 15-22 is not an isolated case. The article from The Firearms Blog indicates that there have been multiple incidents of issues. Enough so that they are banned from the Appleseed events. Ref: BREAKING: S&W M&P 15/22 Rifles BANNED at Appleseed Events Due to Run Away and Out of Battery Firing - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

I think it is rare, but something that S&W really needs to address. Someone has already been injured and required medical care.
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You might want to read this: It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!
 
tomcatt51 said:
You might want to read this: It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!
Click to expand...
WHEW!!! long read. I see I came late for the Dinner.. ended up at Supper.. LOL

Meaning, I'm new to the S&W 15-22 since June 18th. So it was news to me about this non-issue I saw over on another "rimfire" forum, and now here.

FWIW, it is not dirty gun, nor duds nor for the most part, ammo. however, even Smith & Wesson has recommendations of ammo to use and NOT to use on their Performance Center model. ALL firearms are man made, and there can be an issue of a few slipping through that for all intents and purposes, look "ok". On mine putting in 0.153" x 1.000" diameter pins and noticing the movement of the pin in the hole leads me to believe that hole size can quickly become a problem. Not every one has issues with hole size. The holes are precise for the proper alignment of trigger sear and hammer sear. If there is very much off in where the holes are, or the size of the holes or the wear of the pins, and matching sears and let off, it can lead to some problems.

I've made a lower from 80% lower Polymer from jamesmadisontactical.com/ and drilling, even with a jig can be challenge in polymer. If you run the drill bit too fast and don't provide enough "cleaning" as you drill you can get the tip hot and melt/bore the hole instead of cutting a nice clean hole. Worn bits on metal usually give undersized holes, but on plastics they can generate heat and actually cut oversize. Nothing worse than an oversize hole.

So my speculation... theory is, someone had one of the rifles that probably had oversize holes that allowed too much give on the pins and resulting tolerances between trigger sear and hammer.


It is not S&W fault design, it is simply machinist error on when to change out bits or the procedure of drilling the hole, and nothing more. It can happen on aluminum as well, with the same results.

Cheer! (toasts glass of wine to you all... anyone want a nice Merlot?)
 
This brings the Toyota "unintended acceleration" cases of a few years ago to mind. Frankly I had not heard about this in my cave in Tora Bora, but with 5K plus rounds through my "experienced" vintage 15-22 color me suspicious.

My inner Bubba installed an aftermarket Jard trigger way back when, for what that's worth. I do get the occasional failure to fire which is common these days; but never the dreaded OOB.

For now I'm inclined to file this with the "hateful internet video""of Benghazi.
 
Registered just to be irritated. Honestly I would like to hear something about this. 10 months and I am wondering if it is time to pick up a new rifle to run Appleseed.
I have a Marlin 795 that I am lukewarm on. Trigger is only so so. I would much rather use my 15-22. I don't really care for any 10/22 I have seen. Not soliciting rifle suggestions from other manufacturers though I would take them just want to know if it is time.

Thanks in advance,
John
 
I purchased my 15-22 in 2009 when they were first introduced. Back then, this Forum was flooded with OOB reports. OOB reports continued for probably close to a year or so. Then S&W started to install "blue springs" in the FCG and bolt spring, and the OOB reports went away. I was surprised to hear of the Appleseed ban so many years later. OOBs at the wrong place at the wrong time.

If the ban is going to stay in effect waiting on S&W to issue an official corrective action as the ban letter indicates... I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
ChattanoogaPhil said:
I was surprised to hear of the Appleseed ban so many years later. OOBs at the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Actually it was ONE OOB and then was an issue only because the next shooter on the line caught a piece of brass and bled a little. The only apparent difference between this and incidents of OOB with other brands of 22lr semi-autos seems to be that someone bled a little. Totally avoidable if Appleseed simply exercised common sense and didn't stack shooters with semi-autos on the firing line "elbow to elbow" and S&W can't "fix" that.
 
opivy79 said:
Registered just to be irritated. Honestly I would like to hear something about this. 10 months and I am wondering if it is time to pick up a new rifle to run Appleseed.
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I would suggest finding other events to shoot. The way Project Appleseed stacks shooters on the line elbow to elbow is totally unacceptable to me.
 
Never been to an "Appleseed" event, but excess shooters does not sound like much fun. I live in 10 acres (330' x 1330') out in the country with corn field to the West and South of me, and forest to the east of me. I enjoy shooting in the back yard were the majority of the "free space" is. Range is open 24/7

What differences would there be in the standards "Sport" model and the "Performance Center" model for probabilities of OOB ? It's a rimfire and the mere stripping out of the magazine with enough resistance (not getting in the chamber) would be enough for the primer to detonate. Any .22 lr semi auto could be prone to the same issues.

I'll have to Google "Appleseed" some time and see what it's all about.
 
Aksarben said:
Never been to an "Appleseed" event, but excess shooters does not sound like much fun.
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https://mississippiapples.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/banner4.jpg

Does this look like something you want to do? It was copied from Project Appleseeds web site. Before someone says they just got the shooters together for a pic look at the downrange target spacing. I call putting shooters on the line like this stupid at best.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139256490-post90.html
 
I have to say, with regards to rimfire and OOBs, it happens.
I have had one in a service rifle I was using (SLR) in 7.62 in the late 80s, with a Heckler Koch conversion kit down to .22..

Blew the side out of the rifle and basically trashed it be beyond repair, much to the dismay of the armourer on duty.

Fast forward to last year or so and watching the very funny Doomsday Preppers on Discovery Channel and one of the guys there, who was demonstrating how he and his son practice takedown drills with a .22, as a point to note a Ruger 10-22,
He very successfully managed to blow the end of his thumb off with his OOB,

That was ON Camera and Broadcast for all to see,
Though I guess it wouldn't warrant a withdrawal of the 10-22 from use, as it had NOT been worked on by an, and I use this word loosely, "Instructor " so I guess it failed to qualify for Appleseed attention. :D:D

OOBs happen. FTF happen. FTE happen. It's part of the cycle of using 22s. For crying out loud. Appleseed, accept it and move on!!

Rob.
 
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Rule of thumb for all those who attend....
GET THERE FIRST!
Get on the far left target...you'll have a great time.

For the rest of you, second and third et al...well that's why you have to sign a liability waiver ;)

I wonder where the shills are? Maybe they know what is going on with the ban?
 
tomcatt51 said:
https://mississippiapples.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/banner4.jpg

Does this look like something you want to do? It was copied from Project Appleseeds web site. Before someone says they just got the shooters together for a pic look at the downrange target spacing. I call putting shooters on the line like this stupid at best.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139256490-post90.html
Click to expand...
I've seen ranges that tight in the military before. Wouldn't want to be eating that brass though. Had too much of that before.
 
The shooters prayer: "Oh Lord, spare us from 'helpful' folks at the range."

Blame the (any) other guy is a standard response to anything that results in an injury.

About drilling polymer, you're supposed to use spade type drill bits. Otherwise the size of the hole is only remotely related to the size of the drill bit. Heat build up can be a problem in other materials too if you're going for precision.
 
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I went looking for an update on the Appleseed forums. All I found was that S&W was in discussion with Appleseed for about two weeks and then nothing. Appleseed claims that S&W has not replied to emails and when discussing with company representatives, all they say is no comment. Appleseed states that if S&W would just state that there is no design flaw and the firearm is safe, they would return them to the line.

So, basically, nothing has happened on this in the past 8 months!
 
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