Apparent design flaw on the SW22 Victory.

[NH Old School]

I've had mine to the range exactly once, but I shot well over a hundred rounds of various ammo through it. After I got it home, but before cleaning it, I saw a video on Youtube of a guy that did a range session of testing. He found that the screw that holds the barrel and receiver to the frame (takedown screw) had backed out, causing the upper parts to fit very loosely on the frame - like rattling loose. So I checked mine, and sure enough the same thing had happened. I hadn't noticed it while shooting.

I had already had mine apart for an initial cleaning, as per the instruction manual, before taking it to the range. I had tightened the takedown screw as tight as I thought wise. Since I have to take it apart every time I clean it, I don't want to horse it down too much. I'd be likely to wear it out prematurely or flat out strip it.

I tightened it a bit tighter this time - as tight as I dare. I'll see if it starts coming apart again next time I shoot it. If it does, I'll have to resort to using blue Loctite every time I shoot it. Not good!

 

[mlk18]

Not sure that could be described as a flaw. Screws by their nature are meant to screw in and screw out. Obviously there is something going on if the screw was known to be very tight when you began shooting but was loose afterwards, but using loctite on screws is not abnormal. I don't know if I have a gun without loctite on it somewhere.

 

[NH Old School]

Not sure that could be described as a flaw. Screws by their nature are meant to screw in and screw out. Obviously there is something going on if the screw was known to be very tight when you began shooting but was loose afterwards, but using loctite on screws is not abnormal. I don't know if I have a gun without loctite on it somewhere.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've never needed Loctite on any of the 200 or so guns I've owned in the last 60 years. I've used it plenty on other things. If you have to keep using it on things that you have to take apart all the time it's kind of messy, and not a good solution. I don't think a stock gun, used as directed, should come apart in normal use after less than 200 rounds. The owners manual and a S&W video illustrate the proper procedure for taking the gun apart for cleaning, and putting it back together. They do not say anything about Loctite.

I torqued it down a bit tighter this time, so we'll have to see if it's a chronic issue, and if more owners have it.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Put a star washer or nylok washer under your screw and that should fix the problem.......However if you take it down every time you shoot it the screw and female threads will accumulate wear and will be harder to tighten to the same specs over time.

 

[Barrie]

I wonder what the actual Torque specs are supposed to be on this barrel. This could also be part of the problem? Not enough Torque they naturally will start to loosen up.

 

[wproct]

I would use the blue loctite as first choice, and maybe a lock washer as second choice. And, is it really necessary to remove the barrel after every shooting session? Personally, I would use an old toothbrush to clean out the chamber area and bolt face, and a bore snake to run through the barrel if needed, that's the approach that I use on my MKII Ruger semi-auto pistol.

 

[mlk18]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've never needed Loctite on any of the 200 or so guns I've owned in the last 60 years. I've used it plenty on other things. If you have to keep using it on things that you have to take apart all the time it's kind of messy, and not a good solution. I don't think a stock gun, used as directed, should come apart in normal use after less than 200 rounds. The owners manual and a S&W video illustrate the proper procedure for taking the gun apart for cleaning, and putting it back together. They do not say anything about Loctite.

I torqued it down a bit tighter this time, so we'll have to see if it's a chronic issue, and if more owners have it.

Pretty much every optic mount, rail system, and other gun related item with a screw recommends a loctite type product. Every screw on front sight from Glock to Beretta to CZ recommends loctite. We even add loctite to the screws on our weapon mounted lights. Loctite is not like tig welding or something and one does not need to bathe the threads in the stuff. Just a dab will do.

 

[patjmc]

blue loctite wouldn't have to be used every time the screw was removed/replaced. There is usually residual dried on the threads that will still hold the screw tight.

 

[glenwolde]

Maybe this is why High Standard dropped the screw/thumbscrew and stayed with a spring loaded push button retention.

I wonder how much effect different torque has on accuracy. Maybe there's room for a rubber O-ring on the screw?

 

[NH Old School]

I wonder what the actual Torque specs are supposed to be on this barrel. This could also be part of the problem? Not enough Torque they naturally will start to loosen up.

That's a good question. I have torque wrenches and, hex bits to fit them. Maybe I should call S&W and ask that question.

 

[NH Old School]

All or any of the above suggestions would probably work. However I still don't think it's appropriate for a manufacturer to put out a product that needs additional engineering on the part of the user. If it was designed to need Loctite or lock washers, the washers should be installed at the factory (as they are on Colt Single Action Army Revolvers), and/or the instructions should specify using Loctite. We shouldn't need to be having this conversation. It should function as advertised if used according to instructions.

And by the way, before I bought the Victory, I did watch the S&W video, on cleaning it. If it had said anything about Loctite or supplying my own lock washers etc., I wouldn't have bought it, as that would have negated its major advantage to me over the Ruger that I already have.

 

[NH Old School]

I would use the blue loctite as first choice, and maybe a lock washer as second choice. And, is it really necessary to remove the barrel after every shooting session? Personally, I would use an old toothbrush to clean out the chamber area and bolt face, and a bore snake to run through the barrel if needed, that's the approach that I use on my MKII Ruger semi-auto pistol.

I've had a Ruger MK II bull barrel target pistol for 20 years. It still runs fine, and is very accurate. I bought the Victory specifically because of the comparative ease of taking it down for cleaning. That and a bit better ergonomics. The instructions for cleaning the Victory specify taking the receiver group off the frame, removing the bolt, and cleaning from the breech. I could do it differently, but I don't want to. And, yes, I do clean it every time I shoot it, same as every other firearm I've ever owned. I should be able to follow the manufacturer's instructions and expect the gun to work without falling apart. The fact that there are fixes to work around the problem does not alter that simple fact.

 

[TAROMAN]

Browning uses the same system on the Buckmark pistol.
There's a jillion of them in service, including my four.
Never heard of any "design flaw" on them.
Tighten it up and go shooting.

 

[josywales]

Remington never heard of a design flaw on their 700 action safety either. Just keep the rifle pointed in a safe direction...

 

[S&WIowegan]

I can't comment on the takedown screw coming loose during shooting since my Victory extractor left the range on my first shot. However, I will comment on how hard the takedown screw was torqued from the factory. I could not break it loose with the allen wrench included, nor with a hex bit in my Brownells kit. I finally took the original allen wrench and added a much longer, stronger handle to it to break it loose. In retrospect, that is probably a clue from the factory about loosening during use.

I have no problem using locktite when needed. Most of my S&W revolvers loosen screw(s) during use.

 

[swmetal]

I haven't seen anyone mention purple loctite. Purple is their "low strength" and is designed for screws that are intended to be routinely loosened. I use it on all my scope mounting screws as there is no worry about messing up screw heads from excessive torque when removing.

 

[Starwalker]

My Victory also comes loose rather quickly. Not much different from my Buckmark UDX that does the same thing.

I used blue loctite on the Buckmark and have been shooting it for almost a year with only cleaning with a pull through, q-tips, and brass brush.

I will do the same thing with the Victory, and use much the same items to clean it.

I like both the Buckmark and the Victory, so I am okay with loctite on the take down screw.

 

[frankcr]

The gentleman is correct to mention purple Loctite. Screws below 1/4 in in diameter should use purple or equivalent. I think many get by with blue by not using it correctly in the first place. A clean small screw and thread treated with blue can be a bear to remove.

There is a tolerance on screws and threads, so you can run across installations which resist backing out or not under vibration. Loctite is the proper way to prevent problems with screwed connections. Lock washers remove metal whenever disassembled and are not as desireable.

If S&W has a design problem, then so does any screwed assembly in industry. A customers lack of knowledge of screwed assemblies is not their problem.

Torque is to maintain proper clamping pressure, not to prevent loosening of a joint. Proper torque prevents damage to a screwed assembly.

 

[AlwaysArmed]

A fastener can not hold unless it is stretched. It's like a clamp. Loctite, lock washers and star washers treat the symptom but will never cure the disease. Find the socket head cap screw size on a torque chart and torque it to that value. Torque is not as good as stretch but you can't measure stretch on a blind fastener.
And don't even think about using a stainless steel screw. It will seize fast without a lubricant.

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/US-Recommended-Torque.aspx

 

[frankcr]

In rereading my post above, I apologize if I came across harsh, as I do not mean to do that. I hung around engineering and machine design for some time, so fasteners were just a tool to me.

Everyone has areas of expertise and it would not be reasonable to expect anyone not familiar with a process to understand it.

The web is full of complaints regarding designs made by those who just do not understand the process. Hopefully these comments will serve to educate. Go to any thread on Buckmarks and you will see condemnation of threaded joints by folks who just do not understand the principles.

Always armed, I would like to have the hours back we spent fighting galled stainless steel fasteners over the years