Are revolvers for amateurs?

[John Patrick]

The labels are the labels. If you don't like what the manufacturers call something (micro, subcompact, compact, full size, long slide, etc.), then call it what you wish. That being said, when speaking about a pistol size on an Internet forum, it's easier to go with the standard size label then to read everyone's mind on the topic. The firearm size that I was recommending, which is a g19, p10c/p07, p229, etc., sized firearm, for a first time firearm, one gun, firearm owner, I would still recommend.

Now that you fully understand what size I was recommending and we are over the semantics, what are your thoughts on this?

You can call it semantics, but when police and sheriff departments across the nation have issued G19s as standard service sidearms, they're service size, no matter what label Glock once put on them.

My thoughts are that the G26 has been made obsolete by the G43X, the G19 rendered almost obsolete by the G48. If Glock would follow Shield Arm's lead in magazine capacity, the 48 would render the 19 obsolete.

Working in a gun store Sundays gives me the opportunity to see many people handle lots of guns, especially Glocks. I see that the G19 grip is too short for most men and they'd be better off with a G45 or G17, or a 19x. And I see that the grip of the 19, 45, 17, is too thick for most women and they'd be better off with a G48 or 43, 43x.

However, throw concealed carry into the discussion and it makes the 48 and 43x shine for men and the 43, 43x and 48 shine for women.

Still for most customers looking for a "house gun" or "bedside gun," a steel six shot revolver is a better choice with a simpler manual of arms.

 

[theprincipal]

You can call it semantics, but when police and sheriff departments across the nation have issued G19s as standard service sidearms, they're service size, no matter what label Glock once put on them.

My thoughts are that the G26 has been made obsolete by the G43X, the G19 rendered almost obsolete by the G48. If Glock would follow Shield Arm's lead in magazine capacity, the 48 would render the 19 obsolete.

Working in a gun store Sundays gives me the opportunity to see many people handle lots of guns, especially Glocks. I see that the G19 grip is too short for most men and they'd be better off with a G45 or G17, or a 19x. And I see that the grip of the 19, 45, 17, is too thick for most women and they'd be better off with a G48 or 43, 43x.

However, throw concealed carry into the discussion and it makes the 48 and 43x shine for men and the 43, 43x and 48 shine for women.

Still for most customers looking for a "house gun" or "bedside gun," a steel six shot revolver is a better choice with a simpler manual of arms.

So when you remove all of the semantics, redundancy, and sales pitches, what specific revolver model are you recommending for amateurs/new gun owners, instead of my recommendation that "beginners should stick to a reliable compact semiautomatic pistol, and get the necessary training and practice time."… By compact, I mean a firearm that has approximately a 3.5-4 inch barrel and allows all fingers to cover the grip. Obviously the new gun owner would need to purchase one that is comfortable and fits their hand size, either by switching out a back strap, or generally.

 

[Alton]

So when you remove all of the semantics, redundancy, and sales pitches, what specific revolver model are you recommending for amateurs/new gun owners, instead of my recommendation that "beginners should stick to a reliable compact semiautomatic pistol, and get the necessary training and practice time."… By compact, I mean a firearm that has approximately a 3.5-4 inch barrel and allows all fingers to cover the grip. Obviously the new gun owner would need to purchase one that is comfortable and fits their hand size, either by switching out a back strap, or generally.

For the females I have helped and shot with, the Model 60 was their preferred revolver, ammo of choice 38 special.

 

[pawngal]

For the females I have helped and shot with, the Model 60 was their preferred revolver, ammo of choice 38 special.

I have directed many new female gun buyers to Charter Arms revolvers. Partly price point compared to S&W and largely because the grips are slight longer than the standard ones on J frames. Us gals don't like our pinky with no place to go. I also feel having a full grip length increases control of the gun.
My business partner owns one and took a women's self defense class using it, 6 or 7 women, she had the only revolver and finished top of the class and is not an experienced handgun shooter.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

It's a mental thing imo. The shooter who chooses to carry a wheelgun knows he only has 5 or 6 rounds and knows he has to make his hits while the semi shooter has 20 rounds plus so has plenty of ammo and can afford to miss.

 

[John Patrick]

So when you remove all of the semantics, redundancy, and sales pitches, what specific revolver model are you recommending for amateurs/new gun owners, instead of my recommendation that "beginners should stick to a reliable compact semiautomatic pistol, and get the necessary training and practice time."… By compact, I mean a firearm that has approximately a 3.5-4 inch barrel and allows all fingers to cover the grip. Obviously the new gun owner would need to purchase one that is comfortable and fits their hand size, either
by switching out a back strap, or generally.

You seem to be trying to make this discussion a personal attack. There is no redundancy, no sales pitch from me to you or store customers, just discussion and swapping information.

I didn't think I needed to repeat it since several other members touched on it, your new shooter recommendation comes with the caveat of adequate training, which doesn't happen all that often. But even if the new shooter does get reasonable training, the chances they'll keep at it are slim. Once that Glock, Shield, whatever semiauto has sat in the nightstand for a couple of months, the safe operation of that semiauto, like clearing the chamber after dropping the magazine, or even dropping the magazine, is long forgotten by way too many.

The steel six (or seven) shot revolver I would recommend is in the same camp as a Glock 19, it isn't compact. Great for the "bedside gun" or "home gun" though, like a G17, 45 or G19 for those with hand size that can get the pinky fully on the grip. Selections include S&W 2 3/4", 3" and 4" K and L frames, the 4" Ruger GP 100, Colt's 3" and 4" King Cobra and Python, the 3" and 4" Kimber. I'm not familiar with them but I would think that Taurus and Charter Arms have steel six shot revolver options. My personal preference, in so far a a recommendation for a first time gun buyer, would be for a 4" K frame if one were in the case.

But after a discussion with a customer about various options, I always suggest they go to one of several local ranges that rent a wide variety of guns, so the customer has an opportunity to shoot several potential options. [ETA: And it's remarkable to me how few customers will actually go to a range and rent different guns when their reason for purchasing their first gun is for home or personal defense.]

 

[theprincipal]

For the females I have helped and shot with, the Model 60 was their preferred revolver, ammo of choice 38 special.

That's a great revolver and a solid choice.

 

[Mister X]

Revolvers have their place for novices and experts alike, and there are plenty of professionals that still depend on them.

 

[MetalMan]

I have directed many new female gun buyers to Charter Arms revolvers. Partly price point compared to S&W and largely because the grips are slight longer than the standard ones on J frames. Us gals don't like our pinky with no place to go. I also feel having a full grip length increases control of the gun.
My business partner owns one and took a women's self defense class using it, 6 or 7 women, she had the only revolver and finished top of the class and is not an experienced handgun shooter.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fully agree here....

Daughter and son-in-law both recently took their CCW in North Carolina. I "lent" one of my Model 60ND to daughter, SIL took his Sig in .45ACP.

Daughter was only one in the class to bring a revolver and she did quite well at the range, especially for never having previously shot this firearm....

Instructor was duly impressed and I don't expect to ever see that 60 ever again in my possession...all I have left are the photos...

 

[theprincipal]

You are trying hard to make this discussion a personal attack. There is no redundancy, no sales pitch from me to you or store customers, just discussion and swapping information.

I didn't think I needed to repeat it since several other members touched on it, your new shooter recommendation comes with the caveat of adequate training, which doesn't happen all that often. But even if the new shooter does get reasonable training, the chances they'll keep at it are slim. Once that Glock, Shield, whatever semiauto has sat in the nightstand for a couple of months, the safe operation of that semiauto, like clearing the chamber after dropping the magazine, or even dropping the magazine, is long forgotten by way too many.

The steel six (or seven) shot revolver I would recommend is in the same camp as a Glock 19, it isn't compact. Great for the "bedside gun" or "home gun" though, like a G17, 45 or G19 for those with hand size that can get the pinky fully on the grip. Selections include S&W 2 3/4", 3" and 4" K and L frames, the 4" Ruger GP 100, Colt's 3" and 4" King Cobra and Python, the 3" and 4" Kimber. I'm not familiar with them but I would think that Taurus and Charter Arms have steel six shot revolver options. My personal preference, in so far a a recommendation for a first time gun buyer, would be for a 4" K frame if one were in the case.

But after a discussion with a customer about various options, I always suggest they go to one of several local ranges that rent a wide variety of guns, so the customer has an opportunity to shoot several potential options. [ETA: And it's remarkable to me how few customers will actually go to a range and rent different guns when their reason for purchasing their first gun is for home or personal defense.]

I was not personally attacking you. You seem very wordy and hung up on semantics,

I have no issue with someone thinking a reliable revolver is a sound option for a beginner. I own 3 revolvers myself. Like I mentioned, I happen to believe a semiautomatic pistol is best.

I also think an untrained person with a firearm can often be more of a liability than an asset in regards to self protection. Providing a crutch for a lack of training/proficiency, shouldn't be the basis for gun buying advice. Training and practice should take place regardless of the type of firearm recommended. As long as all of this is communicated to the new gun owner, then it is up to the gun owner to be self reliant and make responsible choices for themselves.

 

[pawngal]

But after a discussion with a customer about various options, I always suggest they go to one of several local ranges that rent a wide variety of guns, so the customer has an opportunity to shoot several potential options. [ETA: And it's remarkable to me how few customers will actually go to a range and rent different guns when their reason for purchasing their first gun is for home or personal defense.]

That is great but there isn't a range that rents within 100 miles of my store. One indoor range and it is members only.

 

[shawn mccarver]

In the current American Rifleman, a reader wrote in, "I believe that, for anyone who is not professionally involved with handguns, the revolver has inherently simple and effective safety features that cannot be accommodated by the semiautomatic pistol."

That kind of stuck in my craw. Professionals used revolvers for decades, till that Austrian guy undercut revolver prices. And the record of professional semiauto use is full of NDs and spray and prays. It's possible that us amateurs have a similar ND rate, or worse, with semiautos but I know of no statistics on the matter.

Then, to suggest that semiautos can't "accommodate" a DA trigger? Pure silliness.

Of all the letters they receive, they chose this one to print. Sigh.

I switched to semi-auto pistols in the late 70s. From that point, revolvers became range toys and nostalgia pieces except in two categories: (1) pocket carry; and, (2) sporting use.

Revolvers are likely better in lesser trained hands, however, the one part that concerns me is decocking. Even experienced shooters cannot understand that you let the trigger return forward immediately after the hammer is free from the sear in order that the hammer block can return to its place to prevent a ND should the hammer "slip" from the thumb during the process.

Therein lies the rub. DAO fixes that problem, but makes shooting more difficult.

That said, the Glock operates like a DAO revolver, it has a comfortable grip, it is drop safe, and for the same size "real estate" the Glock carries 15+1 rather than 6 (9mm versus 38/.357).

 

[junglefighter]

Next time you are at the range, notice how many fire their double action revolver double action. Very few, if any, shoot this way. Notice their double action group, are all six even on the target? Everyone single actions slow fire on their SD revolver. Just my observation from many shooters.

 

[John Patrick]

That is great but there isn't a range that rents within 100 miles of my store. One indoor range and it is members only.

Well, maybe we found one benefit to living near a big city.

 

[Yaworski]

Next time you are at the range, notice how many fire their double action revolver double action. Very few, if any, shoot this way.

I used to shoot pins with a DA revolver. Five shots, five pins.

 

[malph]

Next time you are at the range, notice how many fire their double action revolver double action. Very few, if any, shoot this way. Notice their double action group, are all six even on the target? Everyone single actions slow fire on their SD revolver. Just my observation from many shooters.

Yep. I rarely see revolver shooters at the indoor ranges anymore. And you are right that many of the ones I do see are shooting their DA revolvers in SA mode.

DA revolver shooting is starting to feel like a dieing art.

It's even worse trying to find a local gunsmith that actually knows there way around a revolver.

We are now in an era where anyone who can change parts in a Glock thinks they are a gunsmith.

There are now a couple of generations of shooters that know nothing but polymer striker guns.

Times change. Technology changes.
.
More and more I feel like us remaining revolver shooters are keepers of the flame.
.

 

[John Patrick]

I was not personally attacking you. You seem very wordy and hung up on semantics,

I have no issue with someone thinking a reliable revolver is a sound option for a beginner. I own 3 revolvers myself. Like I mentioned, I happen to believe a semiautomatic pistol is best.

I also think an untrained person with a firearm can often be more of a liability than an asset in regards to self protection. Providing a crutch for a lack of training/proficiency, shouldn't be the basis for gun buying advice. Training and practice should take place regardless of the type of firearm recommended. As long as all of this is communicated to the new gun owner, then it is up to the gun owner to be self reliant and make responsible choices for themselves.

I'm glad my perception was off, and I am wordy, prefer a full answer when I think it's required.

The semantics are not mine, they are Glock's and yours. The G19 might have been a compact semiauto when it was introduced and for a fairly long time afterwards, but it is no longer a compact semi auto, even if Glock continues to call it a compact.

Nobody would disagree that training and on going practice are far and away the best route for all gun owners, but, despite preaching it myself, I know it's unrealistic to expect even a large minority of new gun owners to practice sufficiently enough to maintain reasonable familiarity with their firearm, let alone achieve proficiency. That fact and the far simpler manual of arms for a revolver are why I argue for a revolver for many, probably most handgun buying their first handgun for the "house" or "bedside."

Perhaps recommending a revolver is a crutch overcoming the reality of the new "house" or "bedside" gun buyer's lack of adequate training or future ongoing practice, but it's a safe and effective crutch.

An untrained, unpracticed gun owner is certainly at a disadvantage compared to a trained and practiced gun owner, but, faced with a significant threat, the untrained, unpracticed gun owner has all of the options an unarmed citizen has, plus the option of self defense.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

Shot my .455 MkVI Webleys last weekend at my cas club's monthly. Shot them duelist-double action [70 rds- had to do a reshoot as the timer acted up]. Was clean for the match. About 160 rds total. 4th place/12. A fun day.

 

[John Patrick]

Next time you are at the range, notice how many fire their double action revolver double action. Very few, if any, shoot this way. Notice their double action group, are all six even on the target? Everyone single actions slow fire on their SD revolver. Just my observation from many shooters.

The few revolver shooters I see mix up shooting SA and DA, like I sometimes do.

I've noticed that shooters with SA/DA semi autos don't do enough practice double action.

As far as on target, sadly, most shooters I see at the range shoot patterns not groups, regardless of weapon. Imagine the likely performance of those who don't go to the range.

 

[rockquarry]

Next time you are at the range, notice how many fire their double action revolver double action. Very few, if any, shoot this way. Notice their double action group, are all six even on the target? Everyone single actions slow fire on their SD revolver. Just my observation from many shooters.

I've seen one person shoot a revolver on our gun club range in the twelve or so years I've belonged. That was in the last year. He was firing a snub nose of some sort and I couldn't tell if he was firing single-or double-action as I was driving on my way home, but he was firing up close (ten yards or less) like 99% of the semi-automatic shooters do.

As for single-action vs. double-action... I shoot single action very enjoyably and at my own pace almost all the time with revolvers at 25 yards (sometimes 50). If you shoot regularly and have been doing so for the last forty or fifty years, it's very easy without thought to transition to double-action shooting.

If a shooter has to think about any of this or has even the slightest difficulty or hesitation in going from SA to DA, the shooter needs to start shooting more, probably a lot more. It shouldn't be difficult to get a decent 25 yard double-action group; mine are larger than groups fired in single-action, but that's because my skill level remains lacking.