Are you sure its "lead"??? WARNING!!!

[flat top]

I came back from the range a couple of weeks ago, and after shooting (in my 44 Mag, 629 snubbie...manufactured in 98) my standard 9.5 grains of Unique, pushing a 250 grain Keith, I noticed what I thought was a bit of leading in the rifling just forward of the forcing cone. I had never experienced this before in the 100 rounds or so that I had previously shot through the gun using that same load. Every effort to remove the "leading" was unsuccessful, including my Lewis Lead Remover! I had NEVER been able to remove lead from any gun I have ever owned...I feared that something was seriously wrong! Upon further (close) inspection, I came to realize, that although it still "looked" like lead build up, it could also be barrel cracking!!! I checked the alignment of the crane, function, and the frame, and everything else was ok! Even though I have been shooting and smithing for almost 45 years, I have never seen anything like this! I needed a second opinion, just to be sure!!!! So, I called Frank at LSG (a Smith Service Center) in Comanche Texas, and explained the issue to him. He has over 40 years of Smith and Wesson repair and custom experience, and I couldnt think of anyone else who would give me a straight answer on the problem (Frank is a real "upfront" guy!). The last communication I had with Frank, was right before he went in the hospital for an operation (he is recovering now...and doing well). Frank told me that a new barrel had been ordered for my 629. I called LSG to get an update on Franks well being yesterday, and one of the shop guys answered the phone. After getting some info on Frank, I asked him about my gun and its problem. He said that many late model Smiths, especially the big bores (44 Mags, 460's 500's, etc), have been showing up for service with the same problems! So, if any of you run into this issue (unable to remove what looks like lead fouling), I would definately have it checked out before continued use of the gun...safety first! If there are any updates or I find out more about this issue, I will post it here.

 

[flat top]

I came back from the range a couple of weeks ago, and after shooting (in my 44 Mag, 629 snubbie...manufactured in 98) my standard 9.5 grains of Unique, pushing a 250 grain Keith, I noticed what I thought was a bit of leading in the rifling just forward of the forcing cone. I had never experienced this before in the 100 rounds or so that I had previously shot through the gun using that same load. Every effort to remove the "leading" was unsuccessful, including my Lewis Lead Remover! I had NEVER been able to remove lead from any gun I have ever owned...I feared that something was seriously wrong! Upon further (close) inspection, I came to realize, that although it still "looked" like lead build up, it could also be barrel cracking!!! I checked the alignment of the crane, function, and the frame, and everything else was ok! Even though I have been shooting and smithing for almost 45 years, I have never seen anything like this! I needed a second opinion, just to be sure!!!! So, I called Frank at LSG (a Smith Service Center) in Comanche Texas, and explained the issue to him. He has over 40 years of Smith and Wesson repair and custom experience, and I couldnt think of anyone else who would give me a straight answer on the problem (Frank is a real "upfront" guy!). The last communication I had with Frank, was right before he went in the hospital for an operation (he is recovering now...and doing well). Frank told me that a new barrel had been ordered for my 629. I called LSG to get an update on Franks well being yesterday, and one of the shop guys answered the phone. After getting some info on Frank, I asked him about my gun and its problem. He said that many late model Smiths, especially the big bores (44 Mags, 460's 500's, etc), have been showing up for service with the same problems! So, if any of you run into this issue (unable to remove what looks like lead fouling), I would definately have it checked out before continued use of the gun...safety first! If there are any updates or I find out more about this issue, I will post it here.

 

[Texas Star]

Is this a two-piece barrel? Not sure when they began using those.

 

[flat top]

Texas Star....I am not sure! How do we tell if it is? It looks to be a standard, ribbed, full underlug stainless barrel, 2 1/2" long, that was manufactured in one piece. I hope one of the real Pro's on here will weigh in. Also hope that anyone else who has had a similar issue will weigh in as well!

 

[Wayne M]

I've seen "ringed barrels" with an area which could be mistaken for leading before. Usually happens when a bullet gets stuck and another is fired behind it. That doesn't sound like your problem though. Your gun should have been manufactured with a one piece barrel; doesn't really sound like a crack. Put a dental pick in there and see if you can feel anything.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

flat top,

Who cast the bullets you used and from what alloy? Is there a possibility that you had a batch of bullets that had some ZINC wheelweights in the alloy? That could explain metal fouling that wouldn't clean out of the bore.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by Texas Star:
Is this a two-piece barrel? Not sure when they began using those.

AFAIK, standard production 629s have never had a two piece barrel, even to this day.

Only the current production K frames, the current production 620, and most of the Scandium framed guns have them.

 

[flat top]

Thanka all! As far as the bullets being a problem...those bullets have been driven at over 2200 fps in my Marlin levergun with a very minor trace of leading, that "brushed" out with no problem. They should have had no problems at 950 or so out of the Smith. The problem looked like "arrow shaped" leading filling the "grooves" of the rifling extending about 3/8 inch forward of the forcing cone. I checked with the dental pick, and I could feel a crack, or what I thought was a crack on each of those areas. Dont know...but, I will find out more as time goes by, and hope to get to the cause of the problem!!! whatever the problem is, it required a new barrel..........

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Your description of the problem, is similar to one I have with a new 329PD, I purchased last month. I purchased it at an indoor range, so did not give it a cleaning first. I fired 50 rounds of .44 Special through it, of Blazer 44 S&W Special 200 GR GDHP rounds. Not lead. However, when cleaning I noted in the barrel, what you described, as looking like what I remember as lead from lead wadcutters, years ago. There are "arrow shaped leading filling the grooves of the rifling on 3 grooves, with an arrow shaped look about 3/8 inch forward of the forcing cone". I have not checked it with a pick. Different, of course, is the gun, as it has a two piece barrel, and the ammo used. I asked the gunsmith at the range, and he said it looked like copper fouling. Like you, I tried several cleaners, going on to KG12 Big Bore Cleaner, Removes Copper, and Shooter's Choice Copper Remover. Nothing, not even a blue tone patch. Anyway, please keep me informed on your outcome. I sent an email on the weekend to S&W, but haven't heard back yet.

 

[flat top]

mbrisbin51500; Yes sir, I will keep you posted. I should be finding out within a week or so. I am as baffled as everyone else, but, it will be interesting to see what this problem is, and what causes it! I will post info on this thread as soon as I recieve it!

 

[flat top]

Well, I talked with Frank yesterday evening, and they are not sure what the problem is but have seen it before....and Smith and Wesson is not sure what the problem is either, or, wont say. Once Frank recieves the new barrel for my gun and has the damamged barrel replaced, S&W requested that Frank send the barrel to the S&W Engineering Lab for for further evaluation. There are probably more reasons for this than one could shake a stick at...high heat developed during the machining or rifling process that changes the molecular structure of the surface of the metal in the bore...poorly smelted metal...improperly hardened metal (too brittle)...overly high barrel torque values...or, a combination of the above, etc, etc, etc. The important point I am trying to get across is, whatever the cause, this condition is not normal and could potentially create an UNSAFE condition....If you have the same problem, contact Frank at LSD or, Smith and Wesson to get the problem resolved before you use the gun again!!! SAFETY FIRST!!!

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Thanks "flat top". I don't know for sure that my situation is the same, other than the arrow shaped looking material in 3 of the grooves. I noted to S&W, to their email site online, that I had used all the cleaners in my previous blog here. They said that "was what would have been their recommendation, so keep trying to clean it out." I will figure out my next followup, but thank you for your update.

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Do you have the full name of Frank's company and telephone number. Thanks.

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Please disregard the request for Frank's company, I located it on Google. Thanks.

 

[flat top]

Sorry I didnt get back with you sooner....I was at work. Frank will take good care of you! I dont know how much Smith expects us to clean our barrels. I mean, I must have put two hours into scrubbing, using the Lewis Lead Remover, etc, and could not get the problem taken care of. Supposedly Smith has had this problem on many of the newer guns, and, if they havent figured it out and corrected it by now, I assume, that the problem is an occasional one that doesnt merit them stopping production to correct it. Well sir, I hope that all works out for you.....and, if you find something out, keep us posted here!

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Nothing seems to touch it, and a few hours involved trying to clean it. I will post, when I find out. Thanks, again.

 

[BillCa]

Usually for stubborn leading or fouling, the product I resort to is Kano's Kroil penetrating oil and bore cleaner. If a 20 minute soak in Kroil won't get it loose very little will.

I'm somewhat disappointed that S&W wanted the barrel back. It would have been enlightening to have it sawn open down the length of the barrel to expose the damage for close-up photography.

 

[JD 500]

flat top - I hope you will post the end result, my 629 has these "arrows" in the grooves as well. I just spent 30-40 minutes with kroil and butches bore shine, and neither put a dent in those arrows.

Thx,

 

[JD 500]

Flat top - Got some pics. Not the best, but all I could come up with.

Does your barrel look like this ? :

Thanks,

 

[flat top]

JD500; "Looks" like the same problem. If a Lewis Lead Remover wont get it out, I would say you "have" the same problem for sure!!!!