Are you sure its "lead"??? WARNING!!!

[flat top]

I came back from the range a couple of weeks ago, and after shooting (in my 44 Mag, 629 snubbie...manufactured in 98) my standard 9.5 grains of Unique, pushing a 250 grain Keith, I noticed what I thought was a bit of leading in the rifling just forward of the forcing cone. I had never experienced this before in the 100 rounds or so that I had previously shot through the gun using that same load. Every effort to remove the "leading" was unsuccessful, including my Lewis Lead Remover! I had NEVER been able to remove lead from any gun I have ever owned...I feared that something was seriously wrong! Upon further (close) inspection, I came to realize, that although it still "looked" like lead build up, it could also be barrel cracking!!! I checked the alignment of the crane, function, and the frame, and everything else was ok! Even though I have been shooting and smithing for almost 45 years, I have never seen anything like this! I needed a second opinion, just to be sure!!!! So, I called Frank at LSG (a Smith Service Center) in Comanche Texas, and explained the issue to him. He has over 40 years of Smith and Wesson repair and custom experience, and I couldnt think of anyone else who would give me a straight answer on the problem (Frank is a real "upfront" guy!). The last communication I had with Frank, was right before he went in the hospital for an operation (he is recovering now...and doing well). Frank told me that a new barrel had been ordered for my 629. I called LSG to get an update on Franks well being yesterday, and one of the shop guys answered the phone. After getting some info on Frank, I asked him about my gun and its problem. He said that many late model Smiths, especially the big bores (44 Mags, 460's 500's, etc), have been showing up for service with the same problems! So, if any of you run into this issue (unable to remove what looks like lead fouling), I would definately have it checked out before continued use of the gun...safety first! If there are any updates or I find out more about this issue, I will post it here.

 

[flat top]

I came back from the range a couple of weeks ago, and after shooting (in my 44 Mag, 629 snubbie...manufactured in 98) my standard 9.5 grains of Unique, pushing a 250 grain Keith, I noticed what I thought was a bit of leading in the rifling just forward of the forcing cone. I had never experienced this before in the 100 rounds or so that I had previously shot through the gun using that same load. Every effort to remove the "leading" was unsuccessful, including my Lewis Lead Remover! I had NEVER been able to remove lead from any gun I have ever owned...I feared that something was seriously wrong! Upon further (close) inspection, I came to realize, that although it still "looked" like lead build up, it could also be barrel cracking!!! I checked the alignment of the crane, function, and the frame, and everything else was ok! Even though I have been shooting and smithing for almost 45 years, I have never seen anything like this! I needed a second opinion, just to be sure!!!! So, I called Frank at LSG (a Smith Service Center) in Comanche Texas, and explained the issue to him. He has over 40 years of Smith and Wesson repair and custom experience, and I couldnt think of anyone else who would give me a straight answer on the problem (Frank is a real "upfront" guy!). The last communication I had with Frank, was right before he went in the hospital for an operation (he is recovering now...and doing well). Frank told me that a new barrel had been ordered for my 629. I called LSG to get an update on Franks well being yesterday, and one of the shop guys answered the phone. After getting some info on Frank, I asked him about my gun and its problem. He said that many late model Smiths, especially the big bores (44 Mags, 460's 500's, etc), have been showing up for service with the same problems! So, if any of you run into this issue (unable to remove what looks like lead fouling), I would definately have it checked out before continued use of the gun...safety first! If there are any updates or I find out more about this issue, I will post it here.

 

[Texas Star]

Is this a two-piece barrel? Not sure when they began using those.

 

[flat top]

Texas Star....I am not sure! How do we tell if it is? It looks to be a standard, ribbed, full underlug stainless barrel, 2 1/2" long, that was manufactured in one piece. I hope one of the real Pro's on here will weigh in. Also hope that anyone else who has had a similar issue will weigh in as well!

 

[Wayne M]

I've seen "ringed barrels" with an area which could be mistaken for leading before. Usually happens when a bullet gets stuck and another is fired behind it. That doesn't sound like your problem though. Your gun should have been manufactured with a one piece barrel; doesn't really sound like a crack. Put a dental pick in there and see if you can feel anything.

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

flat top,

Who cast the bullets you used and from what alloy? Is there a possibility that you had a batch of bullets that had some ZINC wheelweights in the alloy? That could explain metal fouling that wouldn't clean out of the bore.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by Texas Star:
Is this a two-piece barrel? Not sure when they began using those.

AFAIK, standard production 629s have never had a two piece barrel, even to this day.

Only the current production K frames, the current production 620, and most of the Scandium framed guns have them.

 

[flat top]

Thanka all! As far as the bullets being a problem...those bullets have been driven at over 2200 fps in my Marlin levergun with a very minor trace of leading, that "brushed" out with no problem. They should have had no problems at 950 or so out of the Smith. The problem looked like "arrow shaped" leading filling the "grooves" of the rifling extending about 3/8 inch forward of the forcing cone. I checked with the dental pick, and I could feel a crack, or what I thought was a crack on each of those areas. Dont know...but, I will find out more as time goes by, and hope to get to the cause of the problem!!! whatever the problem is, it required a new barrel..........

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Your description of the problem, is similar to one I have with a new 329PD, I purchased last month. I purchased it at an indoor range, so did not give it a cleaning first. I fired 50 rounds of .44 Special through it, of Blazer 44 S&W Special 200 GR GDHP rounds. Not lead. However, when cleaning I noted in the barrel, what you described, as looking like what I remember as lead from lead wadcutters, years ago. There are "arrow shaped leading filling the grooves of the rifling on 3 grooves, with an arrow shaped look about 3/8 inch forward of the forcing cone". I have not checked it with a pick. Different, of course, is the gun, as it has a two piece barrel, and the ammo used. I asked the gunsmith at the range, and he said it looked like copper fouling. Like you, I tried several cleaners, going on to KG12 Big Bore Cleaner, Removes Copper, and Shooter's Choice Copper Remover. Nothing, not even a blue tone patch. Anyway, please keep me informed on your outcome. I sent an email on the weekend to S&W, but haven't heard back yet.

 

[flat top]

mbrisbin51500; Yes sir, I will keep you posted. I should be finding out within a week or so. I am as baffled as everyone else, but, it will be interesting to see what this problem is, and what causes it! I will post info on this thread as soon as I recieve it!

 

[flat top]

Well, I talked with Frank yesterday evening, and they are not sure what the problem is but have seen it before....and Smith and Wesson is not sure what the problem is either, or, wont say. Once Frank recieves the new barrel for my gun and has the damamged barrel replaced, S&W requested that Frank send the barrel to the S&W Engineering Lab for for further evaluation. There are probably more reasons for this than one could shake a stick at...high heat developed during the machining or rifling process that changes the molecular structure of the surface of the metal in the bore...poorly smelted metal...improperly hardened metal (too brittle)...overly high barrel torque values...or, a combination of the above, etc, etc, etc. The important point I am trying to get across is, whatever the cause, this condition is not normal and could potentially create an UNSAFE condition....If you have the same problem, contact Frank at LSD or, Smith and Wesson to get the problem resolved before you use the gun again!!! SAFETY FIRST!!!

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Thanks "flat top". I don't know for sure that my situation is the same, other than the arrow shaped looking material in 3 of the grooves. I noted to S&W, to their email site online, that I had used all the cleaners in my previous blog here. They said that "was what would have been their recommendation, so keep trying to clean it out." I will figure out my next followup, but thank you for your update.

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Do you have the full name of Frank's company and telephone number. Thanks.

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Please disregard the request for Frank's company, I located it on Google. Thanks.

 

[flat top]

Sorry I didnt get back with you sooner....I was at work. Frank will take good care of you! I dont know how much Smith expects us to clean our barrels. I mean, I must have put two hours into scrubbing, using the Lewis Lead Remover, etc, and could not get the problem taken care of. Supposedly Smith has had this problem on many of the newer guns, and, if they havent figured it out and corrected it by now, I assume, that the problem is an occasional one that doesnt merit them stopping production to correct it. Well sir, I hope that all works out for you.....and, if you find something out, keep us posted here!

 

[mbrisbin51500]

Nothing seems to touch it, and a few hours involved trying to clean it. I will post, when I find out. Thanks, again.

 

[BillCa]

Usually for stubborn leading or fouling, the product I resort to is Kano's Kroil penetrating oil and bore cleaner. If a 20 minute soak in Kroil won't get it loose very little will.

I'm somewhat disappointed that S&W wanted the barrel back. It would have been enlightening to have it sawn open down the length of the barrel to expose the damage for close-up photography.

 

[JD 500]

flat top - I hope you will post the end result, my 629 has these "arrows" in the grooves as well. I just spent 30-40 minutes with kroil and butches bore shine, and neither put a dent in those arrows.

Thx,

 

[JD 500]

Flat top - Got some pics. Not the best, but all I could come up with.

Does your barrel look like this ? :

Thanks,

 

[flat top]

JD500; "Looks" like the same problem. If a Lewis Lead Remover wont get it out, I would say you "have" the same problem for sure!!!!

 

[flat top]

BillCA; Smith will probably do one of two things with my old barrel.....check it to see exactly what the problem is and throw it in the trash can, or, throw it in the trash can, and say "yup, another one!" Evidently this is a reoccuring problem, and if they dont know whats wrong by now, they never will...or, dont care to know!...."Just keep chunkin' them guns out boys! We'll fix em if they break!" My next concern is...will the new barrel be any better? at least this time the new barrel will be put in by a real "pro"...not a machine!!!!

 

[JD 500]

looks like time to call customer service.

Thanks flat top.

 

[kritter]

this post prompted me to check out the barrel of my .500...
i think i have a "crack" in my barrel it's about 3-1/2 inches up the barrel , a thin dark line but, running the circumference of the barrel in almost a perfect circle , but only visable in the groves of the rifleing..
too deep to get a clear pic of it but it can be felt with a cleaning patch.. think i'm making a call tommrow too....

 

[flat top]

JD500/kritter; Good luck guys!!! If I can find out any more info on what causes this problem I will share it here.....I have my own opinion, but that is all it is. If you can get a good answer from Smith, please let me know! Thanks!

 

[kritter]

called customer service this morning.. they are sending out a shiping tag,,, they want to see whats going on with it.

 

[s&wchad]

There was a thread about this last year, but I can't find it. There were similar photos (6X magnification or more) of some barrels just like that on new guns. They're not cracks and I'm sure the guns are safe to shoot, as the depth of the irregularities is far less than the depth of the rifling. I doubt it will effect accuracy either, but it may make it more difficult to clean it to your satisfaction (especially if you scrutinizer it that closely). If you ever looked at rifle barrels thru a bore scope, you'd be amazed at the defects and erosion visible in barrels that looked great to the naked eye. I have a Remington 700 in .300 Savage with chatter marks running the length of the rifling and the gun shoots under 1-½" at 100 yds.

IIRC, those gouges are a result of the current rifling process. It could relate to running the machinery too fast, worn cutting tools or inadequate lubricant. You can also see rough machining marks further back in the forcing cone in JD 500's photos. My guess is that S&W considers those acceptable parts that meet their specifications, but they probably don't want to tell you that. If they have a better barrel available, they may accommodate you and replace it, but I'd ignore it if it shoots OK. I'm sure they could produce barrels without those flaws in the forcing cone area, it would just cost more time and money.

No one like to find a wart on their baby, but very few things are perfect if you look close enough. If it's accurate and reliable and if the external fit and finish are good, be happy.

 

[DonD]

Flattop, hate to be a curmudgeon but you posted that you drive 250gr lead slugs to 2250fps in a Marlin.

Either your chrono is off or you're way out of bounds pressure wise. Hodgdon's top velocity for a 240gr Nosler is 1817fps at 36,200 CUP and CUP is higher than PSI. Don

 

[flat top]

S&Wchad; My issue with my Smith barrel was that it didnt come like that...and believe me I keep an eye on my barrels!!!! I went to the range one day, and fired a cylinder full of my standard 1000 fps rounds, and when I was cleaning the barrel, thats when I noticed the "imperfections". Thats when I tried everything I could to remove what I thought was leading, to no avail. I then got on the phone to LSG and Frank told me that this was a "common problem" and that Smith would replace the barrel. I dont know if this is a safety issue or not, but, I am not going to fire a gun that has anything wrong with it. If there is a brave soul out there who has the same problem...they may want to continue firing the gun until something happens...or, does not happen. I am not going to take the chance, and evidently neither will Smith, because it is standard practice for them to replace barrels that exhibit this problem.

 

[JD 500]

Chad - Thanks for the reply.

After flat top made a specific point of suggesting the lewis lead remover, I did the following.

Assuming the Lewis lead remover is similar to the (Tipton) Magic metal cloth I have , I cut a small piece off and rubbed it on this "blemish" with a nylon dental type pick. Guess what. It turned black, which tells me I am removing something. I haven't shot but maybe 12 lead bullets through my 629, however they would have been followed (Same range trip) by jacketed bullets. I'm now wondering if what I have is lead(ing). It is not coming off quickly at all, and solvents and brushing aren't doing much at all, but yet that cloth is removing something. I think I am going to continue with the lead cloth and see where it takes me before calling smith. I can say that I have fired rounds since with no issues, and at least in my gun, accuracy seems fine (It is a 2.5" bbl fwiw).

 

[flat top]

DonD; I said I drive a 300 grain bullet (that is the lightest bullet I shoot in my Marlin) at 2150, and that I am not at maximum charge (if memory serves me). I modified my Marlin XLR for a longer COL (2.660....standard COL is 2.580 or there abouts), and it has a lapped barrel which will produce higher velocities. I also shoot lead bullets which produce higher velocities at lower pressures than jacketed bullets. The increase in COL in my rifle does two things. It allows me to seat the long, nose heavy bullets that I use out of the case and allows the bullet to contact the rifling a bit for improved accuracy. Also, when the bullet is moved out of the case, it increases powder capacity for a bit more "oomph", but, does not increase pressure proportionately, so, the loading data for my gun would be different than for others. I am now working with a 325 grain LCMNGC bullet which shows promise of producing velocities in the 2100+ fps range....and, that is out of the 16.5" barrel on my modified levergun. Marlin actions and the 444 Marlin cartridge in that action are rated at 44,000 cup, or, 42,000 psi. I have checked my chrono against known loads and velocities that were tested on other chrono's and it is in the ballpark with that data (I have yet to see any two chrono's produce the same numbers, but most are "close")....Also, if you check "all" manufacturers loading data, and a number of reloading manuals, you will see that there is a great variance in published data and pressures, etc. Don, believe me...I play it safe! I have been building custom rifles and handguns and developing wildcat cartridges for over 40 years, and because there is no velocity worth blowing up a good rifle, or, blowing up FT...I will continue to play it safe!!! I do appreciate your concern, and, you are not a curmudgeon!