Asbestos Danger in Old Military Surplus?

[dandyrandy]

Hello and thank you all for having me here! Ive bought/collected a lot of this old military surplus and had a question about asbestos dangers in this gear. I feel this will be a particular important thread because it could possibly save peoples lives from dangerous asbestos fibers. All of you Im sure are at least aware of the dangers of asbestos and most of it has been banned (NOT ALL) in most countries. However lots of old Cold War era Soviet Bloc stuff can be highly questionable.

My question today is does anybody have any knowledge or experience in any of this military surplus and know what to look for that could possibly have asbestos in it? What is in question today is this Cold War Era Soviet Bloc jacket. The liner in particular. Its a Hungarian Army jacket M65??? (not sure exactly) with an outer and inner liner. From what I gather its from the 70s to 80s time frame and cant find much info on it from the surplus supplier. Ill add pictures if im able to for you to see below.



Im only aware of the Cold War Era gas mask cartridges containing asbestos and also fire retardant clothing from WW1 and 2. Thats all that I know to watch out for on the used military surplus market. If any of you are aware of ANY surplus that has asbestos in it please post your comments below. Any help would be greatly appreciated and potentially save peoples lives. Thanks!

 

[Kinman]

Military surplus that I am aware of that may still contain asbestos are any vehicle with what appears to be cloth wrapping around hot pipes. Asbestos was commonly used in the marine industry, especially in the era of steam. I ran across asbestos cloth wrapped plumbing while working on an old tugboat. Asbestos was also commonly used in the engine or mechanical business anywhere there was an exposure to heat and a gasket found to be necessary. Common uses were for exhaust manifold gaskets, large and small engine. As far as clothing it was used in foundry aprons with regularity, foundry clothing could all be suspect to containing asbestos. Military clothing that could be suspect would be fire suits, before the advent of Nomex. Its fairly easy to recognize, once you've seen it. If something you have is suspect, open up a seam and check. It would be layered in between an inner and outer fabric layer. I also ran into asbestos wrapped pipes on a Daimler armored car, it had a Rolls Royce six cylinder motor and was designed to operate nearly under water, all of the electrical ran through conduit, all exhaust was wrapped with asbestos to prevent inadvertent injury while working on it hot. Before they realized it was dangerous it was the absolute end all when it came to heat resistance that could be worked into a cloth and made flexible. That old tugboat had it wrapped around the huge smokestack down in the engine room, single cylinder Budda engine had about 2" of asbestos fabric wrapped around the stack going up through the cockpit, from what I remember we didn't pay any special attention to it. It was still in use during the waning years of the steam industry. My father in law working in shipping, I noticed the wrapped steam pipes and asked if it was asbestos, he said "What else would they use?" Care must be taken I suppose and I am sure that as long as you don't go cutting it up and throwing it around it is relatively safe, its the fact that someone must be accountable all the way through the cycle...you don't go grinding on asbestos brake linings the way they used to.

 

[dandyrandy]

Military surplus that I am aware of that may still contain asbestos are any vehicle with what appears to be cloth wrapping around hot pipes. Asbestos was commonly used in the marine industry, especially in the era of steam. I ran across asbestos cloth wrapped plumbing while working on an old tugboat. Asbestos was also commonly used in the engine or mechanical business anywhere there was an exposure to heat and a gasket found to be necessary. Common uses were for exhaust manifold gaskets, large and small engine. As far as clothing it was used in foundry aprons with regularity, foundry clothing could all be suspect to containing asbestos. Military clothing that could be suspect would be fire suits, before the advent of Nomex. Its fairly easy to recognize, once you've seen it. If something you have is suspect, open up a seam and check. It would be layered in between an inner and outer fabric layer. I also ran into asbestos wrapped pipes on a Daimler armored car, it had a Rolls Royce six cylinder motor and was designed to operate nearly under water, all of the electrical ran through conduit, all exhaust was wrapped with asbestos to prevent inadvertent injury while working on it hot. Before they realized it was dangerous it was the absolute end all when it came to heat resistance that could be worked into a cloth and made flexible. That old tugboat had it wrapped around the huge smokestack down in the engine room, single cylinder Budda engine had about 2" of asbestos fabric wrapped around the stack going up through the cockpit, from what I remember we didn't pay any special attention to it. It was still in use during the waning years of the steam industry. My father in law working in shipping, I noticed the wrapped steam pipes and asked if it was asbestos, he said "What else would they use?" Care must be taken I suppose and I am sure that as long as you don't go cutting it up and throwing it around it is relatively safe, its the fact that someone must be accountable all the way through the cycle...you don't go grinding on asbestos brake linings the way they used to.

Thanks for that some good useful info there! The outer jacket feels to me like canvas heavy cotton like you would see in old school denim jeans. The inner liner I have no idea. Probably cotton but Im not sure??? The outer liner material feels like cotton to me. Does asbestos lined fabric have a certain feel or look to it??? Thanks for the help!

 

[sheepdawg]

From what little I know I don't think asbestos is a problem until it becomes breathable. Fibers or powders that become airborne when it's cut or abraided are the issue.

I went to the school that had the most asbestos abatement in the state of Tennessee and read up on the topic a little.

 

[Inusuit]

From what little I know I don't think asbestos is a problem until it becomes breathable. Fibers or powders that become airborne when it's cut or abraided are the issue.

I went to the school that had the most asbestos abatement in the state of Tennessee and read up on the topic a little.

I probably know less than sheepdawg, but do have some experience in asbestos remediation. He is correct that the danger comes when asbestos is airborne.

Which I suppose could happen if there was an asbestos component of old military clothing. Unlikely in my opinion.

Back in a previous career, I went on a tour of an abandoned asbestos mine in Alaska. Stuff was everywhere. We were assured by the guides that there was no risk for the reasons sheepdog explains.

 

[GypsmJim]

Asbestos in products was largely eliminated in the US about 1975. If you live in a house built before then there probably is some in your house. Most people are not aware of that.

If you have a newer home with a forced hot air furnace your ducts are probably uncovered galvanized sheet metal. If your home is older and has a gravity furnace with the insulated big round ducts in the basement, the duct covering is probably asbestos.

If your house was built before about 1975 using drywall, the joint compound probably has asbestos in it. If you have an older house built with lath and plaster, the plaster most likely has it.

If you are not sure and want to hang a picture, pound in a nail, don't drill a hole for a molly. Paint over the walls or put up wallpaper, just don't open up a wall.

Probably many gazillions of dollars were spent (wasted) to remediate old schools, when they could have simply encapsulated the areas and sealed the bad stuff in forever.

I don't have any idea about clothing, but when in doubt throw it out.

 

[Ματθιας]

Off the top of my head, the only military clothing that would have asbestos would be the gloves/mittens that were issued to change machine gun barrels.

The most likely place to find asbestos and toxic chemicals is going to be surplus gas masks - the filters specifically. I'd be wary of any NATO filter made before 1980s and Combloc filters made before 1990 - especially the canister type. Remember, the gas masks and filters were used to deal with the IMMEDIATE threat and mission completion - long term effects were not considered. For display or collecting, I wouldn't worry about it - just don't cut one open or wear one.

Also, some of the older military surplus personal hygiene products like talcum power may/likely/probably be contaminated by asbestos.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Asbestos is perfectly safe until it becomes breathable.
Much like bubble wrap from China-perfectly safe until you start popping the bubbles and the contaminated covid air gets out and you breath it.

 

[Steve912]

Mitts for changing M-60 barrels definitely had asbestos, and were still in
use in early 80s in US Army.

AFA asbestos in NBC masks--never heard of that, and don't know why
they'd put it in a filter.

The whole mask would melt before the filter approached temps that
required use of asbestos for heat resistance.
would need that much heat resistance.

 

[Ματθιας]

Mitts for changing M-60 barrels definitely had asbestos, and were still in
use in early 80s in US Army.

AFA asbestos in NBC masks--never heard of that, and don't know why
they'd put it in a filter.

The whole mask would melt before the filter approached temps that
required use of asbestos for heat resistance.
would need that much heat resistance.

Asbestos in gas masks wasn't used for heat resistance, it was used as a filter medium. Asbestos is an excellent filter medium. It was even used in cigarette filters in the '40-50s!

The issue is when it breaks down over time along with the other chemicals in the filter - like chromium. That's what makes them a danger.

 

[HorizontalMike]

Vietnam and such

Don't get me started... I was stationed on a couple of destroyers (DD717 & DD727) back in the early 70's and had the not-so-great experience as an Electrician's Mate, of pulling new replacement wiring over asbestos insulated pipes in the engine and boiler rooms of these old converted (framm-ed) WWII destroyers.

No masks, +100F in the spaces, itched like Hail when I was done, and have wondered ever since about the related cancer popping up. Long story made short, ended up with my 100% disability for other things but still wonder if my lungs will come up short... +68.5 and counting...

Keeping my fingers crossed. ..

 

[Muss Muggins]

I think there’s asbestos in almost everything made before about 1978 . . .

 

[dockmurgw]

Asbestos is perfectly safe until it becomes breathable.

The word some are searching for is "Friable", that is it can be crushed and pulverized by hand. Like a sleeping dog, leave it alone and its no risk at all. Non friable can be made friable if subject to extreme measures like building demolition, but for the most part there's no risk to being around it.

 

[steelslaver]

Mike, and everyone else If your asbestos exposure was 20 or more years ago and you have not had any effects you very likely never will. I was exposed to a whole bunch of it in the mid 70s. About soiled my drawers a few years back when I had an "abnormal" chest X ray. Spots on my lungs. I have had 4 cat scans since and spots are staple, but, one thing my Pulmonary Dr did tell me that any bad effects from the asbestos would have shown up in the first 20 years after the exposure. I am now back to 1 chest X-ray a year.

Back in the 70s when I was in my 20s there was a product used in oil drilling mud called Visbestos. Powdered asbestos and it was mixed in with the drilling fluid to enhance its ability to lift fine cutting from the hole. For over days at a time spreat out over around 6-8 months I mixed 8 50# sacks of it into the mud in a small shack with no repository protection, and did stuff like eat my lunch and stuff while doing it. Yes, there were cautions on the bag, but nobody paid any attention to those. I was lucy that it never effected me.

another source of asbestos is brake pads and clutches. Transite roofing and siding etc.

 

[dandyrandy]

Thanks everyone for contributing. There is already one person that didnt know about asbestos in old military NBC filters so this thread is already doing good things. I did hear of womens jackets imported in the USA sometime in the late 70s I think that were found to have cloth with asbestos woven into the fabric so it does look possible that military jackets could have asbestos in it. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Ματθιας]

Mike, and everyone else If your asbestos exposure was 20 or more years ago and you have not had any effects you very likely never will. I was exposed to a whole bunch of it in the mid 70s. About soiled my drawers a few years back when I had an "abnormal" chest X ray. Spots on my lungs. I have had 4 cat scans since and spots are staple, but, one thing my Pulmonary Dr did tell me that any bad effects from the asbestos would have shown up in the first 20 years after the exposure. I am now back to 1 chest X-ray a year.

My dad had asbestos exposure when he was a carman with ATSF. He said that they bricks of asbestos that they would have to break up by hand, no PPE, and mix with grease to pack bearings and such. This was in the 50s -70s.

I knew my dad had exposure as he was involved with a class action suit long before they started advertising the suits on TV - like early 1990s. When he did scans they found the damage - scaring. Even up until the months before he passed, he never had lung problems and the scans showed the lungs were stable, what got him was DLBCL lymohoma - likely from years of solvent exposure.

 

[Kinman]

Thanks for that some good useful info there! The outer jacket feels to me like canvas heavy cotton like you would see in old school denim jeans. The inner liner I have no idea. Probably cotton but Im not sure??? The outer liner material feels like cotton to me. Does asbestos lined fabric have a certain feel or look to it??? Thanks for the help!

I can't imagine it being used on an external suit of clothes unless you were working for Red Adair and walking up on a burning oil well....thats a perfect use for the stuff, the heat would still kill you before the fire touched the Asbestos. I could think of it being used for a particular type of work suit where the possibility of getting burnt would be high, then it would probably be layered between cotton cloth outer layer, if you caught fire you would still be protected by the inner layer. As most of the guys mentioned unless your grinding on brake drums, or clutch discs or other mentioned occupations your fairly safe as long as it isn't messed with. In a way its sort of like all of the lead exposure concerns people have. We had a couple range officers take the club to task for hearing impairment, which led to L&I coming in and drilling us for lead compliance, safety meetings, things we took for granted for nearly 100 years. I've been casting bullets and messing around with lead for decades and when they decided to have a few of us tested my limits were almost nil. One of the early lesson I got was never work with boiling lead, keep your temps below 800degrees, wash your hands and everything is kopescetic...I remember smelting down a good sized pot one day, getting sidetracked and suddenly remembering "THE LEAD" I was running it on a large propane burner outside and the pot was bubbling away, I checked the breeze, approached from up wind and shut it down, no problem.
It does have a definite look about it, think fiberglass batting. The stuff is usually light grey or even white and has a woven look.

 

[steelslaver]

For that matter fine fiberglass dust is not good for you lungs, nor any kind of sanding dust.

another possible source of asbestos is the old vermiculite insulation. Depending on its source it can have high levels of asbestos in it.

Libby, Montana, is the site of one of America's worst man-made environmental disasters. Toxic asbestos dust from the vermiculite mines that helped the town prosper for decades has killed hundreds of residents, sickening thousands more. Victims continue to surface.

 

[HorizontalMike]

Adding to my asbestos exposure in the early 70's, I already have had another lung disease called Histoplasmosis. I missed 5-1/2 months of my 2nd grade school year back in 1958-59. Even today, my chest X-rays still show the encapsulated Histoplasmosis granulomas in my lungs, that "could" become re-activated. That is why I continue to worry and be vigilant.

click below for more info:
Histoplasmosis: A disease caused by the fungus Histoplasma capsulatum. Most people with histoplasmosis have no symptoms. However, histoplasma can cause acute or chronic lung disease and progressive disseminated histoplasmosis affecting a number of organs. It can be fatal if untreated.

 

[bob1956]

If it is or you suspect it is asbestos. What we do is encapsulate it with something else. You could use a high quality tape or other type of epoxy, fiberglass are some options. To remove it or disturb it is when all the problems arise. If it’s in clothing and such, bag it and seal it. Remember to label it so others won’t come into contact with it by unknowingly. My best friend was a hull technician in the navy for 25 years. He told me it looked like snow in the engine room airborne. He’s gone now a couple years and no one should ever die like he did. Extremely painful to watch.