Attn Snub owners: Reload times from concealement?

[eb07]

If this isn't in the right spot please move.... it has to do with concealed carry only.

I am looking to see how I am doing reload wise. I have been working at it and getting better every day with the small revolvers.

I am talking real life concealment. Not IDPA vests with speed loaders or moon clips on the belt, I am talking in a pocket, or under a shirt concealment. Like you would on a day to day basis.

I am looking for feedback on those who train and time themselves with snubs only

Right now here is where I am at:

Method: Michael de Bethencourt right handed reload

Firearms trained with: Ruger LCR and Smith 442 (now)

Speed loaders: From concealment, using either 5 star or SL variant.

Location: Under a t-shirt, on a ted blocker speed loader clip, tucked into my belt on my weak side.

Here is the carry location and method:



Times: From last shot to fist shot, I am at 4-5 seconds, with just over 4.04 being my best time. When I have my slow moments I have gone as high as 7 before.

Speed strips: Bianchi six cartridge strips setup with two on each end. Only loading 4.

Here is the setup:



Location: Under a t-shirt, From concealment, weak side back pocket.

Times: From last shot to fist shot, I am at 6-7 seconds, with 6.12 being my best time. When I fumble or have issues around 8.5 is the high I have experienced.

Seeing as I made the decision to carry only snubs from here on out, I have been working at becoming not only accurate with them, but proficient with reloads. Going out for at least a half hour a week to do live training.

I also try to dry run at least two to three times a week with snap caps and some used shells I fired that fit the actual chambers as would freshly fired rounds so I need to hit the ejector a couple times.


Yeah I may never again need to use it but outside of all the above, it is actually a fun hobby and using a shot timer and practicing under stress shooting things like the F.A.S.T., Hackathorn Standards, or various LEO qualifiers with a snub to see how I do is actually a stress relief in itself.


So any of you guys that have carried snubs a lot longer than me and have forgotten more than I know about them time yourselves in non gaming situations to see how fast you load when having to lift up shirts, dig in pockets, and remove them from under or half in belts? I would be very interested to see how I am doing.

If yuo don't time yourself that's cool, but I am interested in you folks who do.

Thanks!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I almost always carry additional ammunition in my car or in my briefcase but I virtually never practice reloading. I live in the Pollyanna world of 5 rounds or 6 rounds (I usually carry a snubbie Model 10 [sometimes a J frame M 642]) will probably be all that I need. When I feel the need to be concerned about reloading quickly I carry a high capacity automatic pistol like a 6906 or similar weapon. I have carried snubbie wheelguns for many, many years and never concerned myself about reloads other than to ensure I have extra ammunition, sometimes in some kind of leather strip, sometimes a speedloader, sometimes both, but I don't worry about practicing reloading, I presume it's a non-event. Call me Pollyanna for sure!

 

[APS]

Good for you for practicing your snubbie reloads. I never timed my snubbie reloads but my K frame IDPA reloads were ~3.5secs so I'd say you're doing just fine.
I am curious on this though. Your speedloader is sticking up quite a bit and you obviously have a generous covering garment. But why do you carry your revolver so low? That has to slow down your draw and make it more fumble prone. You can get a full firing grip on your LCR with an F3 appendix holster.
Did you have to do anything to that loader to get it to work with your LCR? I hate HKS loaders so I had to modify a Safariland Comp1 to get it to work with my LCR38.

 

[eb07]

Good for you for practicing your snubbie reloads. I never timed my snubbie reloads but my K frame IDPA reloads were ~3.5secs so I'd say you're doing just fine.
I am curious on this though. Your speedloader is sticking up quite a bit and you obviously have a generous covering garment. But why do you carry your revolver so low? That has to slow down your draw and make it more fumble prone. You can get a full firing grip on your LCR with an F3 appendix holster.
Did you have to do anything to that loader to get it to work with your LCR? I hate HKS loaders so I had to modify a Safariland Comp1 to get it to work with my LCR38.

For deep concealment mainly. I can get it out pretty quick. under 2 seconds which is good for a concealed handgun. I have a higher ride holster, but I carry low with speed strips mainly. That was put on with that holster for a photo opp to show where I carry it when I do.

Right now, that holster and speed strip is all I have. Very concealable

As for the loaders, here is my write-up:

https://thedesertsedge.wordpress.co...lcr-comparison-part-1-specs-and-speedloaders/

The 5 stars and sl variants work great. What did you do to the comp1?

 

[Handgun Hunter]

I carry a 627 with four-inch barrel with moon clips and belt holders for the loaded clips. So to me that's "real world." Without rushing it, I can reload in 3 seconds if using pointed bullets like Hornady Critical Duty or Defense. I can do it faster when really trying.

I either wear an over-sized T-shirt over it all or an undershirt tucked in and an unbuttoned and untucked dress shirt over everything. This is the best I can do in hot weather as far as comfort goes. It is about as difficult to hide this revolver and spare ammo as it is to hide a Glock 17 and a spare mag. The G17 is just lighter and a little thinner, but it does carry more rounds of course.

 

[Cal44]

I like 5 star speed loaders with my LCR 357

 

[Kanewpadle]

Statistics show that you probably won't have to reload. However, it's a good skill to have. Not only should you practice reloading, but knowing when and when not to is equally important. Cover and/or concealment is more important. Don't just stand there while you practice. Simulate cover and concealment.

I carry a reload always. Not for capacity but for function. Anything can and will happen. If I use my gun in self defense, I will not stand there waiting for the police with an empty or near empty gun.

A second gun serves me better than a reload at times.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I prefer a New York reload.

 

[APS]

The 5 stars and sl variants work great. What did you do to the comp1?

Good write up on the loaders. Surprised you had issues with the Comp1 and the 442 but I have not tried that new pattern of rubber grip. The old uncle mike's boot grip and the crimson trace 405 both work fine with the Comp1s in my 642.

To mod a comp1 for the LCR, I removed some material from the points of the star in the center that holds the rounds spread open. Just a bit and test, repeat, etc. Also had to relieve a little on my factory boot grips and crimson trace grips to allow the loader to more easily slip by.

I moved from the LCR to the 642 when I finally had enough of the beating the crimson trace grips gave me. I don't know why they decided not to put a soft recoil pocket in those grips. Even mid range wadcutters hurt. Conversely, with the crimson trace 405 boot grips I can shoot the 135gr+P Gold Dot without pain.

 

[eb07]

Statistics show that you probably won't have to reload. However, it's a good skill to have. Not only should you practice reloading, but knowing when and when not to is equally important. Cover and/or concealment is more important. Don't just stand there while you practice. Simulate cover and concealment.

I carry a reload always. Not for capacity but for function. Anything can and will happen. If I use my gun in self defense, I will not stand there waiting for the police with an empty or near empty gun.

A second gun serves me better than a reload at times.

Thanks. But I'm really just interested in people who have timed their reloads

 

[Kanewpadle]

Thanks. But I'm really just interested in people who have timed their reloads

Up to you. But timing under stress while moving is more realistic. On the street the only clock is the one in your head.

 

[eb07]

Up to you. But timing under stress while moving is more realistic. On the street the only clock is the one in your head.

So do you have any reload times to share? Or will the thread degrade into every body giving a opinion or suggestion that I really don't need nor asked for at this time. Thanks.

 

[Ranger514]

Back in the day when we carried service revolvers, I seem to remember that we had a qualification drill that required us to draw, fire off a full cylinder, reload, and fire two more rounds on center mass in 10 seconds or less from the 5 yard line. I wonder if I could still do that with a concealed carry rig like yours. It's been a lot of years. Anyway, keep up the good work. You're doing great.

 

[Kanewpadle]

So do you have any reload times to share? Or will the thread degrade into every body giving a opinion or suggestion that I really don't need nor asked for at this time. Thanks.

Just trying to help. The point is, if you're not willing to train like you fight, why bother?

How fast you reload isn't the answer. But I guess you already got that figured out. My time versus your time means nothing on the street. And that is fact.

 

[eb07]

Just trying to help. The point is, if you're not willing to train like you fight, why bother?

How fast you reload isn't the answer. But I guess you already got that figured out. My time versus your time means nothing on the street. And that is fact.

And it continues. Nothing constructive to add.
You haven't helped one bit.


I don't care about the street. I don't care about your opinion. I have my reasons for asking.

The Internet is a big place. Please go start your own thread thread and spout your opinions. Thanks for nothing I specifically asked for people to be intelligent and respectful enough not to do what you are doing. I guess that backfired.

Wow.

And for the record I have already been involved in a defensive shooting. I train hard. I'm in great shape and I don't need your advice. What I requested was what you seem unable to or unwilling to give. So move on. Please.

 

[Screwball]

Well, we don't time only reloads with our qualifications... but if you'd like, I can do it sometime this weekend/early next week in my two setups (described below). Comes down to availability, but that isn't a hard thing to time out.

I've been carrying my 642-1 since 2009. Most of that time, it was ankle carried with two HKS speedloaders in my pocket (on patrol, G&G boot-laced holster; plainclothes, Galco Ankle Lite). I recently had a 9mm converted cylinder fitted, which switched me over to moon clips (still carry two; I do keep three extra in my bag, along with three more duty magazines). I probably gained well over a second of time by going moon clips. With the speedloaders, I hold the cylinder with my off hand (after a clear ejection) and load with my shooting hand. Everything related to the moon clip, including ejection, is now done with my off hand, and my shooting hand just actuates the release and pushes the cylinder out... all without breaking my grip. I'm right handed, so with .38s, they were in my right pocket. 9mms go in my left pocket.

It really is nice when there isn't any part of your reload that doesn't fit in the gun. If things were different, I would have cut the .38 cylinder for moon clips before sending the gun to Robar for NP3 Plus, since I rather keep the plating on the backside of that cylinder assembly. I don't plan on cutting my 629-1 for moon clips, either (that is more recreational than defensive oriented, so speed isn't that big of a deal).

Take this however you like, but for me, I would never say an opinion (granted, on topic... not someone saying "autos solve all reloading issues") from another source is not needed... people learn from discussion. I am actually interested in your opinion on that not being appropriate (more than you being in good shape or being in a shooting). Nevertheless, from qualifications and being assigned to Sergeants that are/were firearm instructions, I really would not put a lot of stress on reload speed (unless you are shooting competitively). I especially would not time/practice going from a shooting position, reload, back to shooting position all while standing stationary in the middle of the room (training does carry over into real world... look into L/E clearing their guns after a shooting when training procedures had them unload after each shoot in the academy). As you said, you have about 5 seconds of reload downtime. Reloading is the second most vulnerable time you can have while in a gunfight... first is having an inoperable gun (jammed, broken, lost, or completely empty). While you might think speed will make you superior, your threat has about 4.5 seconds of leisure to put a round into you while reloading. Actually sit down and consider how long that time is, being it will always feel quick when working the gun.

As L/E, we are trained in self-preservation. We cannot stop a "bad guy" if we are dead or incapacitated in any other way. Likewise, that doesn't allow use to save someone's life (I've broken that rule in regards to risking my butt to save someone... and most L/E do, to not make myself out as a hero). Reloading from cover and taking 7 seconds is more of a win than reloading in the line of fire in 3.5 seconds. We tend to have body armor on, and it is still a tactic that is ingrained into our heads. If you ever read into Wyatt Earp, he said that taking your time is how you win a gunfight. Now, it doesn't mean drawing slower than a snail will come out on top, but if your muscles outrun your mind, that is where you start slipping up. Piece of advice you might not care about, but for people reading into your thread (which the topic is interesting), it might give them more background when considering what the data is showing.

With that being said, become proficient with reloads. I want to be clear that my post isn't being made to say that people should not practice that. When I switched to 9mm, I wanted to see if the cases would stick in the cylinder, which was common with 940s. The first two range trips, I couldn't check because habit for me was to hit the ejector rod twice (if a case didn't clear with the first hit [emoji6]), then move to reload. As it sits now, it is one hit with the rod, especially since the clip keeps them together and the cases are much shorter... but it took a lot to get that change. The cases didn't stick, by the way (cylinder is cut to 9x23mm, so I doubted it). [emoji41]

 

[eb07]

To explain things, this is a personal goal for myself. You must first learn to shoot stationary before you begin to move. You wouldn't learn trigger control last. Until you master it and accuracy then you can incorporate movement and other things such as draw stroke and one handed operation. So one step at a time please. This is specifically addressing reload times. That is the intent of the thread and all I care about at this time. Thanks folks for all the input. I am trying to master it in muscle memory before I do two things: slow a class up full of semis with a j frame, and start moving. I fully understand standing and reloading during a gunfight is stupid. That's not what this is about.

I ran a carbine class with the k frame but it's bigger and more forgiving with the speedloaders and I only had to reload twice.

Please don't derail this any further with different training suggestions. I'm just trying to see where I am at with the loaders and strips from concealment compared to others. Nothing more and nothing less. When I'm interested in training advice I get it from established professionals in real life in a class setting and not from the internet. No offense folks. So please don't take any.

On another note that is why I stopped pocket carrying. No way you can get the gun out when being attacked in a force on force class and having to move from the threat first then drawing. I do a lot of force on force and have a local group that consists of current LE, military, and others and we work ourselves. So my goal is simply learning something new to me. One step at a time. Being the only j Framer I reached out to all of you for a baseline.

 

[quinn]

Reload would be a long time for me... I'd have to drive home and dig out a box of ammo as I do not carry any reloads. If my initial 5 rounds isn't enough, I don't think 5 or 15 more will make a difference. just me...

 

[Kanewpadle]

And it continues. Nothing constructive to add.
You haven't helped one bit.


I don't care about the street. I don't care about your opinion. I have my reasons for asking.

The Internet is a big place. Please go start your own thread thread and spout your opinions. Thanks for nothing I specifically asked for people to be intelligent and respectful enough not to do what you are doing. I guess that backfired.

Wow.

And for the record I have already been involved in a defensive shooting. I train hard. I'm in great shape and I don't need your advice. What I requested was what you seem unable to or unwilling to give. So move on. Please.

I haven't done anything wrong. If you didn't like my first post you should have ignored it. Period.

This isn't all about you. This is a privately owned forum which is open to the public. Every post is owned by the forum. People come here to learn and share information. That's why we're here. This thread wasn't hijacked or derailed. It was simply expanded.

And for the record, I like most people here that carry a snub either don't think we'll need a reload or we carry a second gun. So I/we don't practice reloading it. I instead practice reloading my primary carry pistols which I carry 99% of the time.

And for the sake of argument, I timed myself reloading my Sp 101. With the speed strip in my off hand pocket the time was almost 10 seconds. Slow.

Keep an open mind. It is possible that we all can learn something here.

 

[eb07]

I haven't done anything wrong. If you didn't like my first post you should have ignored it. Period.

This isn't all about you. This is a privately owned forum which is open to the public. Every post is owned by the forum. People come here to learn and share information. That's why we're here. This thread wasn't hijacked or derailed. It was simply expanded.

And for the record, I like most people here that carry a snub either don't think we'll need a reload or we carry a second gun. So I/we don't practice reloading it. I instead practice reloading my primary carry pistols which I carry 99% of the time.

And for the sake of argument, I timed myself reloading my Sp 101. With the speed strip in my off hand pocket the time was almost 10 seconds. Slow.

Keep an open mind. It is possible that we all can learn something here.

You input is not welcome to me. Please be a respectful gentleman and move on.

Sheriff Jim Wilson said it best so I will leave you with that and add you to my block list

Internet forums are, at best, entertaining and nothing more. The anonymity is the perfect venue for Internet Commandos to pontificate about things that they know nothing about. In reality, a lot of them haven't been in a fight (of any kind) since their third-grade scuffle on the school ground. You'll have a lot less grief if you spend good money to get professional training. You wouldn't take your flight training from an instructor who has never even been in an airplane, would you?