feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Well, lockheed sure built a ton of P 2v`s and P-3s for the navy durring my career.
Awful news about the F-22!
- Thread starter Texas Star
- Start date
Huh? Where did you get your information? What is the "cancellation" you refer to? The contract was for 187 airplanes and that is exactly how many were built. The contract was not extended and that is why many people mistakenly think cancellation. IT WAS NOT CANCELLED.
General Dynamics was not the "original designer", it was a teaming arrangement between Lockheed, General Dynamics, and Boeing. Each partner was responsible for certain sub-assemblies/structures. I never heard about $1000 washers but I DID hear about $100 washers in the late 70's, long before the F-22 program. If you knew anything about mil-specs and how government contracts work, you would know why the washers cost that much.
Were you "on the factory floor" to get the impression that it was a "doomed program"? I never got that impression. The F-22 was managed in Marietta, the F-35 is being managed out of Fort Worth, hardly "the same incompetent management".
ChuckS1
US Veteran
I worked on the VH-71 Presidential Helicopter Program until Obama cancelled it. Much like Cass said, the program was plagued by a seemingly endless series of requirements changes by the Navy, including 2 flat screen monitors, an "office in the sky" capability with a LAN network and printer (try getting a laser/ink jet printer to print in a helicopter without looking like a seismograph printout after an 8.8 earthquake 
), restroom, kitchenette, and other changes too numerous to mention. Basically after all the requirements changes, the end state aircraft was no longer then aircraft that was bid. The sad thing is that when the program was cancelled, Lockheed offered to deliver the first 19 aircraft (originally 24 and you thought there were only a couple, didn't you? ), but the DoD declined. Instead, the Govt ended up paying cancellation costs to Lockheed (since the contract was cancelled at the convenience of the Govt) approximately equal to the 19 aircraft. So, after spending hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the new aircraft, pay for a new state of the art hangar and control tower at Patuxent River NAS, plus upgrades at Quantico, and have a production line ramped up and ready to go, you, the taxpayer, got absolutely nothing to show for it. Except about 400 Lockheed Martin employees and probably at least an equal number of subcontractors who lost their jobs. The Navy's going to do another solicitation for the next Presidential Helicopter in the next year or so. Rumor is that the same two aircraft that were proposed the last time are going to be bid again, with changes to the industry teams with Lockheed and Sikorsky teaming against a Boeing/Agusta Westland team. So basically, the taxpayer's going to pay for the same thing all over again, at a higher cost and probably with less capability.
), restroom, kitchenette, and other changes too numerous to mention. Basically after all the requirements changes, the end state aircraft was no longer then aircraft that was bid. The sad thing is that when the program was cancelled, Lockheed offered to deliver the first 19 aircraft (originally 24 and you thought there were only a couple, didn't you? ), but the DoD declined. Instead, the Govt ended up paying cancellation costs to Lockheed (since the contract was cancelled at the convenience of the Govt) approximately equal to the 19 aircraft. So, after spending hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the new aircraft, pay for a new state of the art hangar and control tower at Patuxent River NAS, plus upgrades at Quantico, and have a production line ramped up and ready to go, you, the taxpayer, got absolutely nothing to show for it. Except about 400 Lockheed Martin employees and probably at least an equal number of subcontractors who lost their jobs. The Navy's going to do another solicitation for the next Presidential Helicopter in the next year or so. Rumor is that the same two aircraft that were proposed the last time are going to be bid again, with changes to the industry teams with Lockheed and Sikorsky teaming against a Boeing/Agusta Westland team. So basically, the taxpayer's going to pay for the same thing all over again, at a higher cost and probably with less capability.
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cass
Member
Cancellation was a bad word. (It would have been much better for Lockheed if it had been a cancellation = $$$$$ in contract fees) It wasn't an extension, as had been forecasted early on. 41+ years on the floor - you get a very good pulse of a program dealing with upper management and the customer. As QA, Mil-Std's/Mil-Spec's were our Bible, and is A cause of inflated end item cost. Many of the F-22 Marietta folks have moved to Ft Worth and vice versa. Their problems seem to follow them. I hope for the best for Lockheed, as they pay my retirement, but they have serious management (and union) problems, and don't have the experience to solve the problems. I still feel that the JSF is on life support. We'll see.
forindooruseonly
Member
Fatal problems plague the F-22, the U.S.' costliest fighter jet - latimes.com
Just for the interested. Talks a bit why the plane has issues.
Personally, I don't like either the F-22 or the JSF. Wouldn't hurt my feelings if both programs were scrapped.
Just for the interested. Talks a bit why the plane has issues.
Personally, I don't like either the F-22 or the JSF. Wouldn't hurt my feelings if both programs were scrapped.
Cass,
Interesting to see it from the FW perspective, which is where I assume you worked. We always thought FW management "handled" union problems better than Marietta.
My boss used to say that all big companies obviously have the same "big company" problems because if one big company figured it out, they would bury the competition. Since that hasn't happened, they must all be in the same boat!
We sold it in 2007. A great flying machine. I think this says it all.
Loudoun Aviation: 1978 Lockheed Jetstar II
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venomballistics
Member
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
I got in a L 10-11 that was built for one of the moolas in the mid east, forgot which one, gold bathroom fixtures etc, but what really impressed me was a huge round bed that acted like a compass so the punjabs head always faced east as the plane turned!
We lost a L 10-11 on a runway over there that was hauling muslims to mecca. Someone had a coleman stove and was trying to BBQ some goat in the isle!
We lost a L 10-11 on a runway over there that was hauling muslims to mecca. Someone had a coleman stove and was trying to BBQ some goat in the isle!
Might just be me, but I get worried when we're not trying new and different designs, whether good or bad. Our enemies will be designing
weapons and software/training to defeat what we have Now. We
Have to keep tinkering, lest some nasty little snot with an advanced warhead rocket-launcher shoot down all our pilots.
Didn't we enter WW2 with a state-of-the-art WW1 tank? Remember
how well that worked out? JMHO. TACC1.
weapons and software/training to defeat what we have Now. We
Have to keep tinkering, lest some nasty little snot with an advanced warhead rocket-launcher shoot down all our pilots.
Didn't we enter WW2 with a state-of-the-art WW1 tank? Remember
how well that worked out? JMHO. TACC1.
