Sig Sauer doubles down: https://www.police1.com/firearms/sig-sauer-sues-ore-police-training-board-over-p320-ban
Banned Firearm
- Thread starter Kinman
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OP
I have to ask myself the question with as large a company as SIG is why have they not addressed this issue and had a recall?
They can't for many reasons. Primary amongst those reasons is they don't want the MHS PVTs made common knowledge. Just the snippets I've seen do not reflect well upon the 320, especially the M18 variant which seemed to not actually have passed on any measure other than price, which was bid before the evaluation started.
Has any expert or group of firearm experts proven the P320 is defective?
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?
ColbyBruce
Member
"Has any expert or group of firearm experts proven the P320 is defective?
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?"
Bruce Gray of Grayguns, Inc. has done extensive research and testing on the P320 platform.
Has anyone been able to duplicate or create the spontaneous discharges by the gun itself?"
Bruce Gray of Grayguns, Inc. has done extensive research and testing on the P320 platform.
LVSteve
Member
I suspect qualified immunity will be claimed and Sig told to pound sand.
OP
An honest to God "Accidental Discharge" is a very sobering experience. Anyone that has spent a good amount of time around firearms and handguns in particular has probably either experienced one first hand or been around someone that did. I had one take place with a Colt Mustang, since then I have learned that they had a nasty habit of going off while chambering a round from the magazine by way of slide release. When I returned the Mustang to the gunsmith I got it from in a trade he told me that it only took him fourteen loadings to have it drop the hammer. We have all heard about the reasons for carrying an old firing pin on the hammer Colt on an empty chamber, this was most commonly attributed to being dropped on the hammer and considering the angle required for that to happen puts the barrel pointed upward. I had a good friend discharge a cap ball revolver during a competition event, thankfully he was pointing it down range loaded and capped when he accidently let one fly. He is a great guy and excellent shot with pistol and rifle for many years in top contention for top shooter. We all get old and this gentleman, removed himself from the firing line, packed up his shooting box and retired from the event. He was actually running that month's shooting schedule on that Sunday, he finished running the event, announced winners in categories. The next month he showed up and as we were beginning to read the safety rules and other announcements he asked for the floor. He stood up and said that it was time for him to hang up his firearms and spend more time fishing with his grandkids. He contacted me privately to arrange for the disposal of his black powder collection, which was quite extensive and well put together. He just wanted everything to go to a good home where it would be appreciated, all funds donated to the muzzle loading club. I've got to give the guy a lot of credit for recognizing his failure to maintain discipline, he is advanced in his years as are most of us muzzle loaders, but it still takes a big guy to know when to hang it up.
If they hadn't taken my mother's driver's license away from her she would have continued driving with Macular Degeneration so bad she could only tell what color the lights were by their position, she was furious when they gave her an eye exam which she couldn't pass to save her soul. She had to sit within three feet of a television to have any idea what was going on and could only recognize if someone was standing on her porch that they were male or female.
If they hadn't taken my mother's driver's license away from her she would have continued driving with Macular Degeneration so bad she could only tell what color the lights were by their position, she was furious when they gave her an eye exam which she couldn't pass to save her soul. She had to sit within three feet of a television to have any idea what was going on and could only recognize if someone was standing on her porch that they were male or female.
They DID have a voluntary recall, which is why I don't understand
Glock certainly had more reports of their guns going off and they aren't banned anywhere that I'm aware of
The P320 voluntary recall was to correct the gun firing when dropped. The current "uncommanded discharge" issue is a separate, distinct issue.
kshock
Member
I have one that I shoot in competition, never had a problem. But then again I told it not to get "expert" analysis from Facebook posts
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My wife has P238, which she loves. It's a mini 1911 in .380. They had a safety lever recall on the P238's, but it didn't involve her pistol's serial number. Beautiful gun.
I don't own one a P320, but as a firearm enthusiast, I have been following up on the issue. I found this video very interesting.
I don't own one a P320, but as a firearm enthusiast, I have been following up on the issue. I found this video very interesting.
Well for starters the Glocks were primarily going off due to provable fingers or actual FOD in very inappropriate holsters of the era when striker fired handguns were new. There were some Glocks that did make it out of the factory with bad parts, unlike Sig they recalled the entire lots and fixed the issue.They DID have a voluntary recall, which is why I don't understand
Glock certainly had more reports of their guns going off and they aren't banned anywhere that I'm aware of
The 320 is being banned due to a lot of accumulated issues that could have been moved past in 2017, except for that pesky MHS trials charade.
hdfinder47
Member
Still trying to find a video of claimed failures - I'm not totally dismissing the possibility that they may happen, I'm just skeptical as no-one has been able to duplicate the phenomenon (as far as I can ascertain) and I am sure that many attorneys have invested major resources to make that happen. Guess I'm kind of a "show me" guy. And whereas I have several Sigs in my eclectic accumulation of firearms, I'm not a fan boy and currently have no P320s, though I did have a X5 a while back. Ramble over. Carry on.
Ed
Ed
hdfinder47
Member
Thanks for the link - couldn't watch the whole thing without going to sleep. Can you tell me if he ever had anything to say other than he hated Sig?
Thanks.
You tube has several unscripted surveillance camera videos featuring law enforcement officers having unscripted uncommanded discharges in holsters. I understand there is not a problem if the pistol is reassembled in accordance with methodology illustrated in the "Sig User's Manual". Manual prescribes that the slide be locked open with the slide lock which completely withdraws the sear away from the striker preventing partial engagement of the striker and sear. If the slide is just slid onto the frame like most folks assemble a Glock the sear is only partially withdrawn and partial engagement results.
I've got three P250's..... Best carry gun I've found, ok, second only to a Beretta 92 compact type-M.
A lot of P320 bans were rapidly implemented following the reports of an airman shot by an unattended P320 in a holster on his desk on July 20. Most haven't been removed despite a subsequent arrest made in August for making a false official statement, obstruction of justice and involuntary manslaughter. AP Article
I'd love to get my hands on a P250 or two now - they're hard to find these days. I have two P320s and they're relegated to square range duty, with extra care taken once loaded.
All (maybe the vast majority) are end user error. (Just like on computers!)
LEOs are generally poorly qualified and experienced to handle, use, and work with firearms. Agencies are generally too "cheap" to buy proper accessories to demand/pay for continual training of the officers. (Many to the videos shows officers who do not understand or practice good gun hygiene -- such as using their holstered duty handgun as a shelf to carry stuff, etc.)
The Air Force airmen who was shot and killed, based on the arrest of another airmen, was manslaughter. That is, a negligent discharge and not a "uncommanded" discharge.
Amazingly, most people tends to think that a lethal weapon can't cause a fatality.
These bans appear to be over-reactions. On the other hand, safety caused over-reactions aren't the biggest problem. Plus, striker-fired handguns have always demanded more specific safety/handling training than hammer-fired handguns.
Growing pains (But Sig could do a better job in managing this fiasco.)
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The most recent incident to make the news was the unfortunate death of an airman. After investigation by the military someone was arrested for manslaughter and giving false statements.
The other incident that made the news was the unintended discharge of a Michigan State Trooper's holstered firearm. That firearm was tested by the FBI and the test results published. Here is a link to a deep dive into the FBI tests by Outdoor Life Magazine https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/fbi-report-sig-p320-uncommanded-discharge/
Note that the FBI testers cut away material that compromised the safety features and then experienced unintended discharges.
I do not know how many of the other suspect firearms underwent thorough testing without compromising safety features. The FBI and military testing facilities would be the likely locations to conduct these tests.
During cleaning of my M18 I do notice residue buildup in the FCU around the sear housing, sear and sear safety lever. Gentle cleaning with a cotton swab and CLP resolves this. Could residue buildup contribute to unintended discharges?
There is a video posted somewhere in these threads of someone simulating unintended discharges by moving the trigger back to the wall and jamming a screw into the firearm to hold the trigger in place. Then rocking the slide which released the firing pin, and we hear a click. A closer look shows, what appears to me, as a large gap between the slide and the grip. My M18 does not have a gap anywhere close to that of the firearm in the video. At best this test would simulate negligence rather than a defect. I tried to repeat this test by holding the trigger at the wall with my finger. Then I rocked the slide and banged the slide on a hard surface repeatedly. No clicks.
Not saying the P320 / M17 / M18 is totally safe. Some of the testing is suspect. I also suspect that some other unintended discharges are negligence.
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