Battle of Savo Island and the Kirishima

[cmort666]

How many Fletcher class destroyers went nose-to-nose with IJN battleships and survived? For extra credit: what were their names & numbers?

I'm even more impressed by destroyer escorts which did the same thing.

Anybody interested in the subject would be well advised to find a copy of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors". At one time I'd heard that they were making of movie of it, but haven't heard anything since.

 

[bummer]

I'm even more impressed by destroyer escorts which did the same thing.

Anybody interested in the subject would be well advised to find a copy of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors". At one time I'd heard that they were making of movie of it, but haven't heard anything since.

Very good book. I was a Army grunt but I like reading about Naval warfare especially Submarines and Destroyers

 

[LVSteve]

IIRC, this was the engagement in which the American battle line executed the classic "crossing the T" maneuver, thanks to the advantage of radar, allowing our ships to bring broadsides to bear on the approaching Japanese line, which was essentially in single file and not able to bring gunfire to bear except from their forwardmost batteries.

It must have been incredible from the American side, and absolute hell for the Japanese.

The crossing of the T engagement you are thinking of was the Battle of Surigao Strait and the Japanese battleship was the Yamashiro. She went head on into SIX US battleships.

The Fuso had sunk earlier in the battle from torpedo damage.

 

[LVSteve]

There is a book called "Bloody Friday off Guadalcanal" about the night Admiral Callaghan got in to a point blank slug fest night battle with a Japanese task force sent to shell Henderson field. They wanted to land 10,000 infantry on the island and needed Henderson Field our of action while they landed. We lost the fight, Callaghan was killed, but the Japs were not able to knock out Henderson Field. If you look on Google Maps you can still see one of the Japanese transports beached on Guadal, west of Henerson Field. Of the 10,000 Japanese troops only few thousand made it to shore and many of them had no weapons. It was a turning point in the battle.

GPS -9.434129, 159.973826

In the confusion of this action the Japanese Admiral Abe did not realise that his forces had won and ordered a withdrawal. Had he pushed on and shelled Henderson Field as planned things on Guadalcanal may have worked out differently.

The fog of war and lack of situational awareness bit many naval commanders of the day in their butts. Admiral Kurita threw away his advantage in Leyte Gulf when in all honesty he had Taffy 3 up against the wall by the throat and should have annihilated the US force. The WWI Battle of Jutland is almost comical in that the German battle line actually passed through the rear of the British formation to get home, but Jellicoe "knew" where they were.

 

[jlrhiner]

How many Fletcher class destroyers went nose-to-nose with IJN battleships and survived? For extra credit: what were their names & numbers?

I always like the underdogs best...like a riveted, undergunned tank, if you know what I mean.

By survive do you mean continue to float?

 

[M3Stuart]

I'm even more impressed by destroyer escorts which did the same thing.

Anybody interested in the subject would be well advised to find a copy of "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors". At one time I'd heard that they were making of movie of it, but haven't heard anything since.

Excellent book. And also an excellent clue; three Fletcher class destroyers and one Destroyer Escort went head-to-head with IJN battle ships in that book, which covers the 'Battle off Samar' - The DE and 2 of the 3 Fletchers were sunk. But one survived... Back to the topic; a different Fletcher went head-to-head with a IJN battleship in one of the battles near Savo Island during the invasion of Guadalcanal...

 

[M3Stuart]

By survive do you mean continue to float?

Yes, I mean 'continued to float' and I'll add; 'operate under their own power and return to base for repairs'. I'm not aware of any that engaged and suffered NO damage. Though the one that engaged Hiei off Guadalcanal suffered damage mostly to its masts as it was so close the Heiei couldn't depress its guns low enough to blast the hull - which it was trying desperately to do. If it weren't for the U.S. "dud" torpedoes of the time, the Hiei would have been sunk by this Fletcher.

Ok, enough games - At Savo;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_O'Bannon_(DD-450)


At the Battle off Samar;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Heermann_(DD-532)

The Heerman took damage then retired while the DD's Johnston and Hoel, along with the DE Samuel B. Roberts, were sunk in that action.

 

[k22fan]

[...] I'll leave you all with this question:

How many Fletcher class destroyers went nose-to-nose with IJN battleships and survived? For extra credit: what were their names & numbers? [...]

Perhaps I used a looser definition of "nose-to-nose", but I came up with six:

One in the Battle off Samar, Oct. 25, 1944, the USS Heermann DD532

Two in Callaghan's force during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, Nov.13, 1942, the USS O'Bannon DD450 and USS Fletcher DD445.

Three operating as the eastern DD force in the Battle of Surigao Strait Oct.25, 1944. Sailing with her sister ships the USS Remey DD688 and USS McGowan DD678, the USS Melvin DD680 torpedoed and sunk the battleship Fuso.

 

[jlrhiner]

I would agree with K22fan, 6. At least those are the ones I know of.

 

[M1Garandy]

I believe it was a Navy B-25 (forget the Navy/Marine designation) that launched a "Bat" glide bomb at a Japanese destroyer at a range at which the Japanese couldn't even detect it (25 miles?). As I recall, the bomb blew the bow off and she sank with all hands.

I believe the USN/USMC designation for the Mitchell was the PBJ-1.

 

[Mike7.62]

To veer away from the naval topic, other than in numbers, the Stuarts weren't underdogs in the Philippines in '42. My last day on active duty in '84, I met a guy who'd been a National Guard tanker there. He said that until they ran out of main gun ammunition, they went through the Japanese tankers like Schumer through a goose. He also said that he'd wished that they'd had AP-HE instead of AP.

I don't think the Japanese Type 97 Chi-Ha was anything like a PzKw Mk IIIb or IV, much less a Tiger, especially when the thickest armor was 26mm on the sides of the turret, so it's no surprise that the Stuart was effective in the Pacific.

The later versions of the Type 97 had a 46mm main gun which was of higher velocity than the 57mm, and made it more of a match for the M3, as it could hit at a longer distance and penetrate thicker armor.

The 37mm gun on the M3 had a MV of 2900 f/s and was effective at 1000 yards on 25mm armor, which was the thickest that the Japanese Type 97 had, so it had good performance against Japanese armor. It's performance against German armor was somewhat different, as evidenced at Kasserine Pass and Sicily. The Stuart continued good service in the Pacific, but was rather ineffective in the ETO, though it continued to be used there until the end of the war.

I would agree that the M3 going up against virtually any armor the Germans had was an underdog in a serious way, but they were on a much more even footing against the Japanese.

 

[rwsmith]

Holy Quacamole

Look at the drawing with the hits! Thanks, I'm always interested in a good history lesson.

 

[cmort666]

In the confusion of this action the Japanese Admiral Abe did not realise that his forces had won and ordered a withdrawal.

That wouldn't be the last time that happened.

The largest battleship in the world and her escorts would later flee from seemingly doomed collection of destroyers, destroyer escorts and escort carriers, whom the Japanese had already shredded.

Just one of many examples of the benefit of extreme aggression in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

 

[cmort666]

I would agree that the M3 going up against virtually any armor the Germans had was an underdog in a serious way, but they were on a much more even footing against the Japanese.

An even greater handicap for the Japanese was their mind bogglingly wrong headed armored doctrine.

Unlike virtually EVERY army in the world at the time, Japanese doctrine was that the crew of a disabled tank fought to the death ON that disabled tank. Everybody ELSE bailed out, and either got on another tank or fled on foot, disabling essential systems if necessary and possible. Tank recovery units then recovered and repaired the vehicle if possible after the battle.

Even at Japanese levels of industrial productions, it took at most a few days to build a tank. No matter who you are, it takes a bare minimum of MONTHS to build an effective tank crew. Japanese doctrine ensured that when they lost a tank, they also lost a trained crew, and maybe a trained unit leader.

A lot of other Japanese doctrine was astonishingly bad as well, but didn't stand out when fighting Chinese with Hanyang rifles and broadswords, and untrained, badly equipped, poorly led Western troops.

All of this was exposed during the Battle of Nomonhan in 1939, but was largely missed in the greater issue of the start of WWII.

 

[cmort666]

I don't think the Japanese Type 97 Chi-Ha was anything like a PzKw Mk IIIb or IV, much less a Tiger, especially when the thickest armor was 26mm on the sides of the turret, so it's no surprise that the Stuart was effective in the Pacific.

They were more on a par with the Vickers Medium or lighter '30s British tanks.

The BTs at Nomonhan shredded them, even in the hands of the haunted post-purges Red Army. I don't recall if there were any KVs there (or in service yet), but if there were, the slaughter would have been even more dire.

 

[Cyrano]

BTW, it was Adm. Lee who was OIC during the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, where radar was used to great effect and the "Kurishima" was sunk.

.

If I remember correctly what I read in Crossman (Book of the Springfield?), Lee, while a midshipman at the Naval Academy, took first place at Camp Perry one year in BOTH the rifle and pistol National Matches.

 

[k22fan]

[...] Lee, while a midshipman at the Naval Academy, took first place at Camp Perry one year in BOTH the rifle and pistol National Matches.

This is also in James Hornfischer's Neptune's Inferno: the U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal. Apparently, in addition to his keen interest in radar, a back ground in rifle marksmanship didn't hurt Admiral Lee. After all, in navy vocabulary Lee's crew were firing 16" 45 caliber rifles.

Incidentally, Hornfischer wrote that to reduce stress Admiral Nimitz's shrink recommended he occasionally take time off to pursue target shooting with his pistol, and Nimitz regularly followed that advise. Nimitz was overall naval commander for the Pacific theater.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

World War II. Some of us have emptied libraries of WW II books and movies, had uncles and fathers in combat, know the battles, strategies, equipment and commanders on all sides and our kids say World War what?

 

[Dennis The B]

I'm reading "Neptune's Inferno..." now. I've just finished the initial night action chapters, and the book is riveting, to say the least!

One thing not mentioned yet, is the disdain that the USN command staff had for Japanese sailors and their fighting capabilities. In some other books I've read, it was widely thought that Japanese naval personnel had poor eyesight, and could not fight in night engagements. The events of 8-9 August 1942 evidently put this myth to rest.

The book also provides a great background on the commanders on the U.S. side, and the establishment of SOPAC.

I knew that Admiral King always believed he was the smartest person he ever knew, and his command selections and decisions bore out this character trait. That he and Frank Knox, managed to stay clean after Pearl Harbor and the battles off Savo Island, still befuddles me.

I quite understand that someone had to "fall on the sword" after Pearl Harbor, but Admiral Kimmel and General Short certainly weren't deserving of the treatment they received for the incompetence of the navy and army command staffs.

 

[mjr]

One thing not mentioned yet, is the disdain that the USN command staff had for Japanese sailors and their fighting capabilities. In some other books I've read, it was widely thought that Japanese naval personnel had poor eyesight, and could not fight in night engagements. The events of 8-9 August 1942 evidently put this myth to rest.

Sometimes racism's chickens come home to roost.