Best legal protection?

[Jessie]

I've been reading some posts lately about retaining legal protection in case you need to use your weapon.
There's been a few firms and organizations mentioned with no firm consensus that I could determine as to which were solid and worth it.
Would anyone care to weigh in on their experience with this?
I'm thinking it would be a wise move to have that pre-arranged and preferably with a consultation before hand as to what to do and what not to do until your lawyer shows up.
I've heard the gamut on that too. I've come to believe its best to be polite and promise all cooperation AFTER your lawyer arrives.
I want to get to the point where I know I'll have competent council arriving and if they advise the above behavior beforehand.
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

 

[Absalom]

That's a good question. I've thought about this myself at times. The problem (if you want to call it that) is that it really doesn't happen that often; it's not like with a divorce attorney. You can't just ask a buddy: "Hey, Joe, which attorney did you get last time you had to shoot someone?"
If you live in a small town, like I do, the nearest lawyer with any experience in this may be hundreds of miles away.
So far my plan is to call the local attorney I've known for a while and used before and hope for the best. But you're right, it's probably a good idea to be pro-active. I'll be interested to see what suggestions come up here.

 

[Engine49guy]

Checkout the benefits of being an NRA member involved in a shooting

 

[hangnoose]

LEGAL DEFENSE

SSS Esquires. Shoot, Shovel, Shut up! Don't forget to police up your brass.

 

[poppoprr]

I belomg to Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network(360-978-5200). They have a up front money to your attorney in order to get your legal protection going quick. They have a boots on the ground feature, where if you need help getting a defense team started they will come to you and aid you in that. They have self defense attorneys all ove the US, that can help in your area or you can use your attorney. They have a fund with much money in it (approx 5 hund thousand) and they say they will spend up to half in defense of members. Part of your 85.00 yearly fee goes into this fund each time. The fund is continuing to grow. Marty Hayes is a professional wittness in self defense issues and will come to your place and testify in court for you if he is needed. They also have a wonderful teaching dept and they send videos to each member and you get one per year. It is a first rate orginization of about 8 to 9 thousand members. They have a track record and will discuss it with you should you call them. I like this program because they send money after notified. I have researched all mos to fthem and this one seems to be first rate.

NRA has a program, but they will not pay until you have been found not guilty and then they reimburse.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

NRA, first and foremost.

Your state rifle association, next.

There are several organizations/law firms who specialize in firearms defense and you can join, I forget the cost, not outrageous as I recollect, and it's like having an insurance policy. A little on line research will get your their contact information. Also, if your state has a concealed handgun association (Texas does) they will have the information. Many ranges, especially those that teach classes for CHL/CCW, have this information as well.

What to do and what not to do before your lawyer shows up is relatively simple. First and foremost, cooperate with the police. Part of that is, hopefully, getting your firearms out of action before they arrive. They'll like you better if you're not waving a gun around. If you are the one who calls 911 then you have to remember you're already using your mouth so use it wisely.

911 - What is your emergency?

You - A man tried to kill me/was going to kill me/I had to shoot him.

911 - [Assume they don't ask too many questions - if they do be prepared to answer them] - such as:

Are you armed?

You - yes but I put my gun down/away/whatever

911 - What is your location?

You - tell them as specifically as possible; an address is good. Intersections are good, too.

911 - Are you injured? Is anyone injured?

You - tell them if you are, tell them if the perp is alive or dead if you know, or just say the attacker has been shot and might need an ambulance.

Remember - cooperate, but say as little as possible while doing so.

911 - Help is on the way. Stay there.

You - Thank you. [And stay there!]

When the police show up they might ask for your weapon (likely they will). If it's on the ground or otherwise not attached to you tell them or show them. If it's on you tell them and let them take it. DO NOT TOUCH IT.

Police - What happened?

You - He attacked me; I thought he was going to kill me.

Police - did you shoot him?

You - I had to; I thought he was going to kill me. Can I speak to a lawyer, please?

No psychobabble, no excess yammering and details that don't matter, you're done.

Real world - it probably won't work out quite that easily, you'll be pumped full of adrenaline, shaking, maybe scared, maybe sick to your stomach (this ain't TV), just keep it to a minimum. Remember - cooperate. If they press for details of the attack don't tell them you won't tell them until your lawyer shows up. Just tell them the basics of the attack, you thought he was going to kill you, so you defended yourself. Don't be a jerk with the police. They're not after your hide; they need to file a report. Make their job as easy as possible while never saying anything stupid and remember you thought he was going to kill you.

Now you know what to do.

And yes, I am a lawyer, I am a CHL Instructor, and a Level III Firearms Instructor in Texas. The foregoing is not legal advice; you'll get that from your lawyer. It's just practical advice that I'd share with any of my students. Your own CHL instructor should have told you these things.

***GRJ***

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

Yes, I have heard of them, they're probably the best prepared to assist you.

 

[SMSgt]

On the advice of a defence lawyer, call 911, say you need LE and Medical, give location and who you are (I'm so and so and am wearing such and such.). THEN HANG UP AND DO NOT ANSWER CALL-BACK FROM 911. Then call your lawyer.

Anything you say will be recorded and used against you, and 911 dispatchers are trained to get you to talk.

Check in to US LawShield.

 

[Jessie]

Thanks all. I'll be looking into the suggestions here.
I'm ex- military and didn't need to take the class, so never got any advice from an instructor. The military basically told us to shoot center mass, reload and shoot some more. No lawyers required.
I agree with being cooperative, to a point. Basic info of incident, ID, and be disarmed when LE arrives. After that, something I may say or even how it's said could be worked against me without me having a clue at the time.
I think I'll wait for council and LE can finish their report later, thank you.
Again, thanks for all the replies. It makes a possible bad situation easier to manage.

One other thing I've read that makes sense, is that it should be an attorney who's very familiar with self defense shootings and laws. I guess your regular attorney can get the ball rolling and make that contact, but I don't think I'd want a lawyer who's never handled that, handling it.

 

[marinevet]

I belong to a legal defense service called CCW Safe, no limit or cap on defense fees, A- BBB rating, they also provide a bonding service. I was given this as a Christmas gift, and everything I have read about them has been positive. They only provide legal defense, and bonding…….it does not cover any judgement that you might have against you for the discharge of your firearm.

Semper Fi!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

On the advice of a defence lawyer, call 911, say you need LE and Medical, give location and who you are (I'm so and so and am wearing such and such.). THEN HANG UP AND DO NOT ANSWER CALL-BACK FROM 911. Then call your lawyer.

Anything you say will be recorded and used against you, and 911 dispatchers are trained to get you to talk.

That's basically what I was suggesting - very sound advice. 911 needs to know what happened/what the emergency is, where you are, what you need, then you're done with them. But it's easy to say this:

say you need LE and Medical, give location and who you are (I'm so and so and am wearing such and such.). THEN HANG UP AND DO NOT ANSWER CALL-BACK FROM 911. Then call your lawyer

It's not so easy to do. First of all, starting at the back end, not everyone has a lawyer that they can call. But it's okay if you do not because once you ask for a lawyer the police are done asking questions. The problem is with the perp lying in front of you, you have a gun in your hand, and you're shaking like a leaf and maybe about to be sick - YOU CANNOT BE SURE OF WHAT YOU WILL SAY! Anyone who thinks they have that much self control is probably deceiving himself. If you think you're just going to be able to call and NOT say what happened - well - good luck with that. That's why instructors emphasize the fact that lethal force is justified only in the event that you believe you're going to suffer severe bodily harm or be killed - and that's why you say that when asked what happened. That's called "outcry" in some circles and is very believable, and admissible in court.

It's also admissible in court to indicate your lack of cooperation. So......cooperate. Jus' sayin'.........

***GRJ***

 

[federali]

The Right Lawyer

Whether you retain an attorney in advance or call one after the fact, it is really important that you call a criminal lawyer rather than one whose practice is matrimonial, business, civil torts, etc. While any lawyer is better than no lawyer at all, a criminal lawyer has a better grasp of statements that can come back to haunt you as well as the rules of evidence in criminal cases.

But, should you wing it alone, here are a few thoughts:
1. Always call for medical assistance for the person you have shot.
2. Do not use any foul language or racial slurs.
3. Don't try to transform a justifiable shooting into an accidental one, thinking you would be in less trouble.
4. Try your best not to disturb or alter the crime scene.
5. Do not ask the arriving police officers or detectives whether or not you were justified. You should already know this.
6. Fully cooperate with the authorities, even if they arrest you. Nothing good can happen by you resisting arrest. However, invoke your 5th Amendment rights and keep you mouth shut.
7. Don't say anything to the 911 operator you don't want repeated in court.
8. Remember, approximately 8% of the prison population is innocent of the crime they were convicted of. Therefore, an innocent man can indeed incriminate himself.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I like federali's list. I just want to re-emphasize that for most of us it becomes very difficult to control what we say after a shooting, with adrenaline pumping and all the nervous reactions that follow. So, a good plan is to read this thread over and over and put yourself in that place and train your head to these things, and then hope it never happens!

Follow up items:

"Don't disturb the scene" includes NOT TOUCHING the perp that you shot. If you're home, and his body is lying outside your front door - leave him there. Some idiot invented the "drag him inside" fiction many years ago - it's a bad plan. It's easy to tell if the dead guy was moved. DON'T DO IT!

On the other hand, if the guy you shot needs assistance, don't watch him bleed out if you're the only one there. Try to stop the bleeding.

Another rule of thumb I teach people - anytime you pull your gun in public, call 911, even if you didn't fire a shot. Don't be the one that somebody else calls on and tells the police you're in the street with a gun in your hand.

***GRJ***

 

[Jessie]

That's what I mean by cooperating"to a point", meaning only statements. In all other matters I would cooperate fully.

 

[Yankee Bill]

+++1 Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

Masad Ayoob is in their network as well, and has testified as an Expert Witness in a number of cases on their behalf.

YB

 

[sgtsandman]

It's best to do your homework up front as much as you can. Some organizations like USCCA have a referral service or a web page to list some attorneys for you. The first is helpful to a point. The second can be of help or no help at all. In USCCA's case, the attorneys that are listed are ones who signed up to be a part of the service. Of course none are reasonably close to me if something does happen. So, I'm left to referrals from friends and acquaintances and will need to do an interview process of sorts to figure out which one would be best and if I need to establish a retainer with them or not. I will want to be dead sure they are a firm believer in the Second Amendment and the right to self defense before I sign on otherwise, I could end up being the one who is dead because of a poor defense.

 

[Absalom]

........... and you're shaking like a leaf and maybe about to be sick - YOU CANNOT BE SURE OF WHAT YOU WILL SAY! Anyone who thinks they have that much self control is probably deceiving himself. If you think you're just going to be able to call and NOT say what happened - well - good luck with that...........

It's also admissible in court to indicate your lack of cooperation. So......cooperate. Jus' sayin'.........

***GRJ***

Since this thread has drifted from how to find legal support to what to do before you get that support:
Let me support what GRJ says, but coming at it from the opposite direction. I've never shot anyone, but I've been in dicey situations, including fatalities, and you should not OVERestimate the amount of panic/disorientation etc. you'll experience either. Bluntly put, you'll most likely know if you screwed up and need to shut up and wait for a lawyer. Don't turn a clear-cut self-defense situation that to the cops looks like a perfectly justified use of force into something suspicious by waving the Fifth Amendment, clamping your mouth shut and acting like most innocent civilian gun owners (who are not "gun people" like we are and never think about this) would not act.
So cooperate as necessary unless there are GOOD reasons not to.

 

[Yankee Bill]

Since this thread has drifted from how to find legal support to what to do before you get that support:
Let me support what GRJ says, but coming at it from the opposite direction. I've never shot anyone, but I've been in dicey situations, including fatalities, and you should not OVERestimate the amount of panic/disorientation etc. you'll experience either. Bluntly put, you'll most likely know if you screwed up and need to shut up and wait for a lawyer. Don't turn a clear-cut self-defense situation that to the cops looks like a perfectly justified use of force into something suspicious by waving the Fifth Amendment, clamping your mouth shut and acting like most innocent civilian gun owners (who are not "gun people" like we are and never think about this) would not act.
So cooperate as necessary unless there are GOOD reasons not to.

I agree with some of this, but there is also a fine line between taking the 5th, and providing LE with the necessary info that they "need" to know, while also protecting your legal backside.

I adhere to Mas Ayoob's advice in his video's, where basically, he states the info you give police should be: " Officer, there is the person that attacked me, there is the weapon, there is the other evidence (i.e. shell casings or whatever), there are the witnesses. Officer, I intend to cooperate fully and give complete statement once I've had the opportunity to speak with my attorney. My personal info (name, add., dob, ssn etc.) is such & such, here is my Attorney's name and contact info".

Then sew your lips shut until after speaking w/ your atty.

YB

 

[Louchia]

I signed with CCW Safe. They provide legal service for any SD situation. It is not just a referral service or insurance policy that pays for the legal services. They will provide the lawyer and any investigative services necessary at no cost to you. They have a nation wide network of lawyers to work with.
I like the idea that they provide the lawyer. I don't have to scramble around to seek help.
This seems to be the right one for me.

 

[ispcapt]

Officer, I intend to cooperate fully and give complete statement once I've had the opportunity to speak with my attorney. My personal info (name, add., dob, ssn etc.) is such & such, here is my Attorney's name and contact info".

A bit of clarification.
It's not the police's job to call your attorney or find you an attorney. Some people have watched too much TV and think after they've been read their 'rights' that the police are the ones who appoint them an attorney. No so. If you don't call an attorney then one won't be coming.
The court will be the entity who will appoint an attorney *IF* the court determines you cannot afford one. That doesn't mean if you don't have $100K in cash sitting in the bank the court will appoint you an attorney. If you have assets then the court will decide if you can pay your way. Telling the court that if you have to pay then it will dip into your savings or you'll have to sell 1 of your 3 cars, your motorcycle, and your boat won't fly. You'll have to provide all your assets and the court will review what you have and decide if you can pay your own way.
Even *IF* the court appoints you an attorney don't expect that process to happen the night of the shooting. It might be 30 days or longer before the court gets all the asset documents and schedules a hearing to determine if an attorney will be appointed.
So what do you do from the time of the shooting until the hearing to appoint you an attorney? That depends on the circumstances of each case. You could very well be sitting in jail trying to scrape up bond provided the judge agrees to set bond or a reasonable bond. I've done cases where a guy says at he get go he won't talk until he gets an attorney. Then when we haul him to jail he can't understand why he just can't go home. Physical evidence and witness statements didn't help them.

sew your lips shut until after speaking w/ your atty.
YB

Yeah, good advice but very very few follow it. In fact, those I've seen who follow that advice have been arrested so many times before they know the routine. They're repeat customers. The usual scenario is people won't keep their mouth shut. Sometimes you want to just tell them to shut their traps because you get tired of hearing all the whining and carrying on. It's all big internet talk. Some can't remember their addresses or dates of birth. Not likely they'll remember some internet thread.