Redbulladdikt
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mine is an old side-by-side so i am useless for that particular issue...Looking at a Siaga .410 at a local shop tho--very neat
Best Self Defense Ammo .22?
- Thread starter rmw15-22
- Start date
I ended up coming home with cci subsonic hollow point 40 grain, this was pretty much the only hollow point option they had..this should be good as a self defense ammo right, (i only own a .22 so thats why i'm asking)
Redbulladdikt
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not trying to sound 'dickish' but did you actually read any of this thread?>
thacheese
Member
probably not. subsonic ammo won't reliably cycle the gun, and has less velocity to puncture things.
did you read the package? usually it says on them that they won't reliably cycle in semi auto.
did you read the manual that came with the rifle? s&w specifically states any and all brands of subsonic aren't recommended.
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Scuds03
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Shoot em up for practice at 25 yards, then go buy some CCI Stingers instead.
Scuds03
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Yea you have to remember that Ruger is only employed when the opperator has the initiative and element of surprise on their side. When you get woken up at 3AM and got eye boogers you have niether haha
You asked, we discussed and then you ignored.
CCI Subsonic
- 40 grain lead hollow point bullet.
- Muzzle Velocity: 1050 fps
- Muzzle Energy: 98 ft. lbs.
Good luck with that.
From that book you threw away:
Through our testing, Smith & Wesson has also found that there
are several brands and types of .22LR ammunition that do not
perform consistently or reliably. Consequently, Smith & Wesson
DOES NOT RECOMMEND that the following brands or types of
.22LR ammunition be used in your M&P15-22 rifle:
• Remington Golden Bullet • Remington Thunderbolt
• Remington Target 22 • Winchester Wildcat
• Any and all sub-sonic brands and types
Through our testing, Smith & Wesson has also found that there
are several brands and types of .22LR ammunition that do not
perform consistently or reliably. Consequently, Smith & Wesson
DOES NOT RECOMMEND that the following brands or types of
.22LR ammunition be used in your M&P15-22 rifle:
• Remington Golden Bullet • Remington Thunderbolt
• Remington Target 22 • Winchester Wildcat
• Any and all sub-sonic brands and types
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5.56Spartan
Member
You asked, we discussed and then you ignored.
CCI Subsonic
- 40 grain lead hollow point bullet.
- Muzzle Velocity: 1050 fps
- Muzzle Energy: 98 ft. lbs.
Good luck with that.
I will concur that sub-sonic would not be my ammo of choice, and that in the manual it cautions it as unreliable. However, one of the most important rules is to only shoot reliable ammunition (especially in a defense scenario). So far I have close to one hundred rounds of Remington Subsonic through my rifle and not one issue (much to my surprise).
For me and SHTF scenarios; I am going to use my stock of Stinger and Velocitor ammo.
BoDog
Member
22 l.r.
As a former fireman/emt I have been to suisides and drive-by and other shootings and had friends in the coroners office. The puny 22lr does strange things on one suicide the bullet pierced the skull and then bounced around the skull. On another case a victum was shot center mass and they found the bullet in his arm. I have also known of people shot who never realized they were wounded until the incident was over.
22L.R. would not be my choice for SD but it sure beats a sharp stick.
As a former fireman/emt I have been to suisides and drive-by and other shootings and had friends in the coroners office. The puny 22lr does strange things on one suicide the bullet pierced the skull and then bounced around the skull. On another case a victum was shot center mass and they found the bullet in his arm. I have also known of people shot who never realized they were wounded until the incident was over.
22L.R. would not be my choice for SD but it sure beats a sharp stick.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Gentlemen,
If you happen to notice that your post is missing it's because I deleted it. We're not going to get into discussing states issues or opinions of same here. That leads to political discussion which is a banned topic on the Forum.
For specific 2A discussion, there is a dedicated Forum for that. 2nd Amendment Forum
If you happen to notice that your post is missing it's because I deleted it. We're not going to get into discussing states issues or opinions of same here. That leads to political discussion which is a banned topic on the Forum.
For specific 2A discussion, there is a dedicated Forum for that. 2nd Amendment Forum
Exactly. I'll agree that a .22 is not ideal for self defense, but it is a deadly round none the less. I say anytime you've got 25 rounds heading at you you're about to have a bad day.
I think the key to self defense with a .22 is shot placement and volume. Practice firing in 3 to 5 round bursts. Don't worry about tack driving accuracy, but try to keep those rounds in an approximate 5" group.
Also acount for the psycological affect of having a weapon that the badguy believes is an AR.
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Blackbeard
Member
With .22LR, go for the Gut, Face or between the Hips. Upper Center Mass might ricochet off of the Ribs/Sternum and not penetrate.
Ever had a stomach ache? Hurts like crazy, and doubles you over, doesn't it? Imagine what a.22LR Hollow Point would feel like bouncing around in there.
Shooting is just like Realty Property... Location, Location, Location... it's all about Shot Placement.
I keep CCI Mini-Mag HP's loaded in my BUG Beretta 21A Bobcat.
Best of Luck!
Cheers!
BB
Ever had a stomach ache? Hurts like crazy, and doubles you over, doesn't it? Imagine what a.22LR Hollow Point would feel like bouncing around in there.
Shooting is just like Realty Property... Location, Location, Location... it's all about Shot Placement.
I keep CCI Mini-Mag HP's loaded in my BUG Beretta 21A Bobcat.
Best of Luck!
Cheers!
BB
You may have difficulty convincing a jury/prosecutor that your use of so many rounds in the course of self defense/justifiable homicide was necessary and not excessive. I'm not saying you should pop the guy once and hope it all works out while you flip through your law handbook, but just be aware of the laws in your state and all the collateral issues that arise regarding home defense. Another good reason why shotguns are recognized as good home defense weapons.
Not trying to be political or anything, Phil. Just an observation.
Redbulladdikt
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a very very good observation! In concealed carry class we had a lawyer give a simple analogy ( this is a generalization...i am not a lawyer!)
That trigger pull will be the most expensive decision of your life...are you reasonably sure the jury will understand>?
That trigger pull will be the most expensive decision of your life...are you reasonably sure the jury will understand>?
You may have difficulty convincing a jury/prosecutor that your use of so many rounds in the course of self defense/justifiable homicide was necessary and not excessive. I'm not saying you should pop the guy once and hope it all works out while you flip through your law handbook, but just be aware of the laws in your state and all the collateral issues that arise regarding home defense. Another good reason why shotguns are recognized as good home defense weapons.
Not trying to be political or anything, Phil. Just an observation.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
A few pages back in this thread, Whodat posted some chrono results for "hypervelocity" 40 grain HPs (Aguila) in handguns. One of his results is:
S&W 422 – 4.5 inch barrel
(Hollow Point)
High – 1175 fps
Low - 1125 fps
Avg. - 1153 fps
Today I chronoed CCI Velocitor 40 grain HP ammo (advertized 1435 fps) in my Ruger Single Six with 4 5/8 inch barrel. For two cylinders full (12 rounds) average velocity was 1138 fps, low 1107, high 1168 fps.
Nice consistency in velocities from similar barrel lengths, better than one can expect.
Got some 1,5 inch full cylinder groups at about 20 yards, when my fickle eye would let me get off 6 clearly aimed shots. Nice ammo! However, for hunting or self defence with this revolver, I will stick with Federal 50 grain 22MRF loads -- they give 1250 fps from this gun.
For comparison I chronoed one cylinder full of Federal Champion 36 grain HP, listed velocity 1280, from a 525 round value pack. Result was 1057 fps, L 1031, H 1079.
Chrono 12 feet away, temp mid 70sF.
Niklas
S&W 422 – 4.5 inch barrel
(Hollow Point)
High – 1175 fps
Low - 1125 fps
Avg. - 1153 fps
Today I chronoed CCI Velocitor 40 grain HP ammo (advertized 1435 fps) in my Ruger Single Six with 4 5/8 inch barrel. For two cylinders full (12 rounds) average velocity was 1138 fps, low 1107, high 1168 fps.
Nice consistency in velocities from similar barrel lengths, better than one can expect.
Got some 1,5 inch full cylinder groups at about 20 yards, when my fickle eye would let me get off 6 clearly aimed shots. Nice ammo! However, for hunting or self defence with this revolver, I will stick with Federal 50 grain 22MRF loads -- they give 1250 fps from this gun.
For comparison I chronoed one cylinder full of Federal Champion 36 grain HP, listed velocity 1280, from a 525 round value pack. Result was 1057 fps, L 1031, H 1079.
Chrono 12 feet away, temp mid 70sF.
Niklas
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Any number of self defense experts will testify that they teach you to shoot the guy till he goes down, if that's 2 or 300 rounds it's immaterial. At least this is what I was taught last time I attended a gun class. I would fire as fast as I could and if the mag goes dry, well, it goes dry and I load another mag and keep going until I no longer feel threatened. I'm sure you could drag out half the local police force and get similar answers.
If you don't think this will stand up to a court room in your state, I suggest you review why you live in the state you do or elect people who will fix junk like this.
As for ammo choices... I know you asked about stopping power but I'm going to ramble on about my views on what is important in 22LR ammo for self defense.
The principle drawback to 22lr is the fact that it is a rimfire round. Rimfire ignition is inherrently less reliable than center fire. My personal experience is CCI > Federal > Winchester as far as reliable ignition goes. I've never yet recorded a CCI failure-to-fire in my log. In fairness I haven't yet used as much CCI as I have the other brands (3 bulk boxes so far, I only made the switch recently, so far so good!). I have experienced multiple, as many as 5, from a box of 333 Winchester bulk and as many as 3 from 525 Federal bulk. I don't have much experience with other brands - do your own experimentation. Sometimes I can get through a full box of Federal/Winchester with no failures but not very often.
"Stopping power" is a mythological scoring mechanism and 22lr is pretty abysmal in general on that particular scale. If you can reach the vitals, you can destroy them, if you can't then you won't. The more holes you put in the enemy, the more they bleed. Slightly bigger holes don't help this process much unless that bigger hole opened up another artery you wouldn't have hit otherwise - this actually isn't common. I believe penetration is more important than expansion. Much more important.
So, onto penetration... Anything that excells with "varmits" is probably going to be a no-go. I join with those who recommend heavy rounds - though I will part with most and say a "hollow point" is not required. Penetration > expansion. Every time. Though the Velocitor seems to get you a good amount of both, and it's a CCI. Looks like a good candidate. I also like 40gr high velocity solids, CCI has a variety of them. Bulk is going to be cheaper to test out than high dollar rounds like Velocitor, but if you want the best you try for the best.
I suggest you try 500-1k rounds with each round you wish to experiement with and record each failure type. Any gun related failures should instantly void that round type unless you can discover the cause and remedy it and get through 500-1000 trouble free rounds on a 2nd attempt (You probably already know some of this). Once you have found a round your gun likes, I would buy a case of that round type. Not 10 individual boxes, a complete case which should all be from the same lot. Or at least a good quantity, all from the same lot. From that case I'd fire off 3 boxes and check the failure to fire rate and any potential unanticipated gun related failures. If it's zero, I'd call that your "golden stash" and use it for your self defense rounds. I wouldn't use it for plinking. If it's not zero, you can try another lot or go back to step one and look for another round and the rest of that case becomes plinking rounds. It's nice if you also note the consistancy round to round in that lot, if you have a chrono (or a friend with one) you can get even better data. But that's less importantant than the fit and function checking you're doing with the gun and every round loading and going bang. You can use lower number sets if you can't afford this kind of testing, especially with expensive rounds. I find failure to fire common enough to warrent some pretty high round count tests with 22LR to reach my comfort level. Maybe if you wanted to go Velocitor you'd buy 500-1000 from the same lot, test fire 250 for function and keep the rest for defense. 250 is not 1500, but is still a reasonable sample size.
Next best thing you can do is shoot your gun, train clearing malfunctions, etc. Make sure you also number your magazines and note if any of them are causing issues and get rid of them (or make sure they stay training mags only).
I don't advocate headshots unless you know, or suspect, that they are wearing body armor. Shoot for center of mass and shoot till the aggressor drops.
The principle drawback to 22lr is the fact that it is a rimfire round. Rimfire ignition is inherrently less reliable than center fire. My personal experience is CCI > Federal > Winchester as far as reliable ignition goes. I've never yet recorded a CCI failure-to-fire in my log. In fairness I haven't yet used as much CCI as I have the other brands (3 bulk boxes so far, I only made the switch recently, so far so good!). I have experienced multiple, as many as 5, from a box of 333 Winchester bulk and as many as 3 from 525 Federal bulk. I don't have much experience with other brands - do your own experimentation. Sometimes I can get through a full box of Federal/Winchester with no failures but not very often.
"Stopping power" is a mythological scoring mechanism and 22lr is pretty abysmal in general on that particular scale. If you can reach the vitals, you can destroy them, if you can't then you won't. The more holes you put in the enemy, the more they bleed. Slightly bigger holes don't help this process much unless that bigger hole opened up another artery you wouldn't have hit otherwise - this actually isn't common. I believe penetration is more important than expansion. Much more important.
So, onto penetration... Anything that excells with "varmits" is probably going to be a no-go. I join with those who recommend heavy rounds - though I will part with most and say a "hollow point" is not required. Penetration > expansion. Every time. Though the Velocitor seems to get you a good amount of both, and it's a CCI. Looks like a good candidate. I also like 40gr high velocity solids, CCI has a variety of them. Bulk is going to be cheaper to test out than high dollar rounds like Velocitor, but if you want the best you try for the best.
I suggest you try 500-1k rounds with each round you wish to experiement with and record each failure type. Any gun related failures should instantly void that round type unless you can discover the cause and remedy it and get through 500-1000 trouble free rounds on a 2nd attempt (You probably already know some of this). Once you have found a round your gun likes, I would buy a case of that round type. Not 10 individual boxes, a complete case which should all be from the same lot. Or at least a good quantity, all from the same lot. From that case I'd fire off 3 boxes and check the failure to fire rate and any potential unanticipated gun related failures. If it's zero, I'd call that your "golden stash" and use it for your self defense rounds. I wouldn't use it for plinking. If it's not zero, you can try another lot or go back to step one and look for another round and the rest of that case becomes plinking rounds. It's nice if you also note the consistancy round to round in that lot, if you have a chrono (or a friend with one) you can get even better data. But that's less importantant than the fit and function checking you're doing with the gun and every round loading and going bang. You can use lower number sets if you can't afford this kind of testing, especially with expensive rounds. I find failure to fire common enough to warrent some pretty high round count tests with 22LR to reach my comfort level. Maybe if you wanted to go Velocitor you'd buy 500-1000 from the same lot, test fire 250 for function and keep the rest for defense. 250 is not 1500, but is still a reasonable sample size.
Next best thing you can do is shoot your gun, train clearing malfunctions, etc. Make sure you also number your magazines and note if any of them are causing issues and get rid of them (or make sure they stay training mags only).
I don't advocate headshots unless you know, or suspect, that they are wearing body armor. Shoot for center of mass and shoot till the aggressor drops.
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