Better spring kit for 642 - Wolff or Apex?

[tomcatt51]

Might depend on how much heavier of a spring was used. I agree it would seem as thought it ought to be pretty noticeable if a really heavier one was used (if it didn't bend or break the stud off first).

On an otherwise stock gun playing "guess the rebound spring weight" is difficult. I agree with you there.

On a gun with the internals "fully tuned" and with the usual lightend mainspring even a stock (heaven forbid) rebound spring would be painfully obvious. I run clipped Wolff rebound springs and on an a "fully tuned" gun you can feel the diffierence clipping 1/2 of a coil.

To me, heavy(er) rebound springs give the action a "sluggish" feel, compared to the lighter springs. Adding mainspring tension seems less detremental to the "feel" of the DA pull.

I play the rebound/mainspring balancing act in two distinctly different modes with my rimfires and centerfires. The rimfires need more mainspring (heavier hammer fall) and as a result, more rebound spring for a good trigger return. A rebound spring that is "just right" in one of my centerfires won't return the trigger in a rimfire, 17/617.

 

[armorer951]

springs

Along with Fastbolt's prudent caution about seeking lighter double action pull weights at the cost of sacrificing dependability, please remember the effect lighter springs can have on single action.
As you step down the strength of the rebound spring, the single action pull weight will often lighten, sometimes dangerously so, particularly on older guns, or guns that contain hammers and triggers with considerable use on them.
In addition, very low power springsets can actually induce a condition called "push off", where the hammer will no longer hold when moderate pressure is exerted on the back of the spur when the gun is cocked in SA mode. Be sure to check the single action pull if modifications are made to insure SA pull is at or above the 3lb minimum and that push-off is not present.

As Fastbolt has said, use caution when modifying or changing springs, particularly in guns that will be used to defend your life, or the lives of your loved ones.

 

[tomcatt51]

very low power springsets can actually induce a condition called "push off",

Only if the sear surfaces are "iffy". If you have good sear surfaces you won't have push off even with the rebound spring removed. Heavier springs will help hide questionable sear surfaces but push off is a sear issue not a spring issue.

 

[tomcatt51]

please remember the effect lighter springs can have on single action.

Yes they do, but wasn't this thread about springs for a 642?

 

[snubbyfan]

In my 442 I have an 8 pound Wolff main spring and an 11 pound Wolff rebound spring. While I had it apart, I smoothed the guts with an extra fine Arkansas oil stone. I already had the stone for polishing knife edges. I cleaned and oiled it and I've never had a misfire.

 

[armorer951]

re: spring kit

Guess it never occurred to me to test for push off in a gun without a rebound spring installed.

I apologize to Oneounceload. In an effort to pass along what I thought was some additional important safety information to members of the forum, I deviated from the original question concerning the double action only model 642. Sorry.

 

[oneounceload]

No apologies necessary - all of this is good info for a S&W relative newbie like me. Been spending the last 30 years working more on shotgunning (and the S&W Elite Gold was a steal when closed out!) But having found some 32 RPs and recently a K-17, I am learning more and more and I suspect my now meager gun fund may get steered more to collecting some S&Ws as well as doing a little mod here and there on some shooters.

It's all good

 

[oneounceload]

Do any of these kits also work with the I frames in 32?

 

[hotrod150]

.... Imagine my surprise when I inspected the gun and discovered someone had installed a 17-coil rebound slide spring (instead of a 15-coil spring).
....

I just measured a couple of the rebound springs I've removed from my j-frames, presumably stock, and they had 17 coils and were about 1-1/8" long. I have a 13-pack of Wolff 13# rebound springs which I bought not long ago. They are all just a whisker over an inch long, and have 17 coils-- about the same as some 13# Wolff springs I'd bought in the past.
The wierd thing is that not long after I bought this 13-pack, someone on this forum offered to give away a pair of 13# Wolff rebound springs, "still in the package". I took them up on it, but when they arrived I thought they looked kinda long so I compared them to the ones I'd just bought. These freebies had 17 coils, but were about 1-3/8" long.

 

[tomcatt51]

The wierd thing is that not long after I bought this 13-pack, someone on this forum offered to give away a pair of 13# Wolff rebound springs, "still in the package". I took them up on it, but when they arrived I thought they looked kinda long so I compared them to the ones I'd just bought. These freebies had 17 coils, but were about 1-3/8" long.

That's just an older style spring. Wolffs' springs have changed over the years. Same rating but different length and number of coils and wire diameter. The "older" long 13's were/are my favorite. Not as delivered but clipped.

 

[Fastbolt]

Yeah, I wondered about the older springs used in the J's.

One of the guns with the 17-coil spring was from the middle 80's, but my M36 is from about the same time frame, perhaps only a couple of years older, and it has the shorter stock rebound slide spring. I figured that they were probably using the same spring as the K-frames in the J's at some point, or else some guns just slipped out with the wrong springs.

I've also been told by the fine folks at Wolff's that their springs may vary according to materials, length, gauge & windings.

I've been a pistol (metal-frame & SW99/P99) armorer a lot longer than I've been a revolver armorer (only several years for the revolvers), because the former (ret) head armorer handled all the revolver chores. He'd been the S&W & Colt revolver armorer back when we used service revolvers. It wasn't until I'd been off to classes for other pistols, rifles and shotgun that I eventually became interested in going to one of the revolver classes. I'm still pretty much a junior revolver armorer.

 

[329]

In my limited experience working on springs I have discovered that there there is a balance between the mainspring and the trigger return spring. A stout factory mainspring with a 12 lb trigger return spring is just mushy to me. First and foremost you want the gun to fire under any condition with any ammo if you are using the gun for defense albeit home use or outdoor protection.
You can really lighten the mainspring and have an easy double action pull and have a lot of failure to fires. On the other hand you can have a full factory mainspring with a 12 lb rebound spring that will not return fast enough for follow up shots.
This is why an experienced gunsmith can make all the options work out. You can do this yourself but you must be patient and be willing to make numerous trips to the range with lots of ammo to verify that your gun is action ready.

I have found that the first thing you can do ( if you choose not to pull apart everything and smooth and polish) is to dry fire the gun at least 2000 times. This will work out a lot of the smoothness issues. I did this with my 629 and it took out all the single action creep. Then I went on to mess with the springs. I ended up with the Wilson 14 lb return spring and the Wilson main spring. Double action is 8.5 lbs and single action is 2 lbs 14 oz. A trigger pull scale will prove very valuable when trying to figure out your configurations.
If you like to tinker anyone can work out a reasonable trigger, if not send it out. You have to put in the time to make it right. Gunsmiths do this for a living and have a lot of experience. You can gain experience but it takes time and patience.

 

[tomcatt51]

First and foremost you want the gun to fire under any condition with any ammo if you are using the gun for defense albeit home use or outdoor protection.

This is a common post and the "with any ammo" always makes me wonder, why? Planning to participate in running fire fights and and using "pickup" ammo or whatever's on a store shelf to continue when what's in your gun and your pockets is exhausted?

My 342 is 100% reliable with my carry ammo and has a 7 1/4 lb DA pull and that makes it alot easier to be accurate with. I don't see the need for it to fire "any ammo" although I know it will fire CCI primers if they're hand seated. That's my test to assure a considerable safety margin with my hand seated Fedral primers.

If I wanted it (my 342) to fire "any ammo" I'd drop in an Apex spring kit.

 

[329]

This is a common post and the "with any ammo" always makes me wonder, why? Planning to participate in running fire fights and and using "pickup" ammo or whatever's on a store shelf to continue when what's in your gun and your pockets is exhausted?

My 342 is 100% reliable with my carry ammo and has a 7 1/4 lb DA pull and that makes it alot easier to be accurate with. I don't see the need for it to fire "any ammo" although I know it will fire CCI primers if they're hand seated. That's my test to assure a considerable safety margin with my hand seated Fedral primers.

If I wanted it (my 342) to fire "any ammo" I'd drop in an Apex spring kit.

I very much agree but....if you practice with your gun you will be shooting the ammo you carry. And, if for some reason it is hard to find that ammo (like any ammo today) you may have to buy another brand that you have not used. It is nice to know your gun will shoot a variety of brands today. Of course if you carry what you hand load then that is a totally different story. My 3 revolvers are 44mags and and a 357 and I often just buy what I can find.

 

[tomcatt51]

I very much agree but....if you practice with your gun you will be shooting the ammo you carry. And, if for some reason it is hard to find that ammo (like any ammo today) you may have to buy another brand that you have not used. It is nice to know your gun will shoot a variety of brands today. Of course if you carry what you hand load then that is a totally different story. My 3 revolvers are 44mags and and a 357 and I often just buy what I can find.

I reload and carry rds with Speer SB 135 gr Gold Dots that duplicate (or are slightly faster than) the Speer factory rd.

For practice (and I do practice, including shooting our BUG PPC matches with my 342) I use reduced loads that have the same POI. Self abuse during practice is not my thing (J frame that's 16 oz loaded) and the last thing you'll notice in a SD situation is the guns recoil or muzzle blast. To me it makes no sense to beat yourself (and the gun) up practicing.

If I were carrying and shooting varying types/brands of factory ammo that's what I'd be sure my gun was 100% reliable with.