Beware of Phony End Labels, Lets Vote!!!

[Kernel Crittenden]

The printed labels did vary a lot over the years. There's gotta be 7 or 8 legit styles of printed labels. Maybe more. For example, the label used today is nothing like any of the labels shown in this thread. An the labels 3 or 4 years ago were different from the ones today.

 

[jjbrewst1]

The printed labels did vary a lot over the years. There's gotta be 7 or 8 legit styles of printed labels. Maybe more. For example, the label used today is nothing like any of the labels shown in this thread. An the labels 3 or 4 years ago were different from the ones today.

It's the font, spelling, and stuff the labels say that make them a dead give away. Plus the seller is famous for fake labels and boxes.

 

[Sam Casey]

I could be in trouble. Up to now if numbers & features match & box was correct era, I assumed OK. Fortunately, I bought most of my Boxed guns new in years past.

 

[haris1]

The printed labels did vary a lot over the years. There's gotta be 7 or 8 legit styles of printed labels. Maybe more. For example, the label used today is nothing like any of the labels shown in this thread. An the labels 3 or 4 years ago were different from the ones today.

Sir: Your statement is correct, there are many legit labels.But if you would post some examples of legits or phonies, you would contribute more to this thread. Bring out those labels Kernel!!!

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

It's the font, spelling, and stuff the labels say that make them a dead give away. Plus the seller is famous for fake labels and boxes.

Yes. That's good Sherlock Holmes stuff. I just wanted to point out S&W has used a wide variety of printed labels. Including using two or more dissimilar types of labels in the same time frame. They have also, over time, change their nomenclature and feature codes.

For example, "SB" meant "square butt" in one era, but "sight black" (front) in another. At another time "square butt" was "SQ". So, if you see a printed box label that seems different, it may just be a legit style you've not familiar with.

It is a good point about the fonts. S&W has stayed remarkably consistent over the decades, both in style and size. They must have someone in their Art Department that real anal on that.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Sir: Your statement is correct, there are many legit labels.But if you would post some examples of legits or phonies, you would contribute more to this thread. Bring out those labels Kernel!!!

I should put that on my "to do list". Collect jpg's of S&W labels spanning all the years. Could be a fun side hobby, and it wouldn't cost anything. First, though, I'm going to collect all the serial numbers, ship dates, and product codes. Then I'll do the labels.

 

[jjbrewst1]

I should put that on my "to do list". Collect jpg's of S&W labels spanning all the years. Could be a fun side hobby, and it wouldn't cost anything. First, though, I'm going to collect all the serial numbers, ship dates, and product codes. Then I'll do the labels.

Kernel

I can help you with the above on 3" PC and non PC Stuff. Just shoot me a PM

 

[Warren Sear]

Who, in the heck, is producing all these forgeries?!?

...and where can they be purchased?

 

[haris1]

I am too tired right now to really study the labels but I'll play. After a super quick look here's a knee-jerk response:
1. 43 no dash. Maybe fake maybe real? Label is appropriately faded commensurate with the age of the box but is NOT consistent with the overall condition of the box. Weird. The the ink on the label is too dark. There is a chance the label end of the box sat exposed to the sun fading just the label and not so much the rest of the box? Makes me think the label might be real and maybe has original script but someone has written over the original writing to make it bolder? Jeez, I'm already thinking to hard and this isn't as fun as I thought it would be.
2. 624 - Probably fake. The Smith & Wesson at the top of the label is of different color and font of some I have seen but maybe someone will point out S&W had different suppliers of end labels with different fonts? I suspect the hand written "c" is a fake for the stamped red C inside a circle?
3. The 66-2. Fake. Fake. Fake. Fake cause I say so. Also shouldn't there be bar coding on the label and the newer style label versus this older style label? Since I said "Fake" three times I'm fairly sure someone will come along to correct me.
4. 686. Wrong font and color for Smith & Wesson at top of label but with S&W I wouldn't be surprised if someone came along to correct me. Shouldn't there be a bar code?
5. 645 - Real. I'm going to vote for real. I am preparing my skewer and a pit for myself so I can be publicly grilled.
6. 18-4. Fake. It just don't look right at first glance. I'm too tired to try to figure out why and I've already been grilled (see #5 above).
7. 51 no dash. Fake. Serial number is circa 1959. Box is the right vintage and I think the serial # should be in grease pencil on bottom of box. End label is newer vintage than the box.
8. 63. Fake. Serial # is circa 1984. Two piece Bangor Punta box ended 1985 so box and gun could go together? It just doesn't look right and I'm too tired to figure out why.

FYI. First commercial bar code was 1974 and by about and by about 1980 about 85% of all commercial products had bar codes according to Barcoding Incorporated.

You were 7 out of 6!!! The 645 code that you like is a phony-
S&W never used acp on the labels. Also see my real 645 label
below the phonies-Thanks for contributing!!!

 

[PatriotX]

...and where can they be purchased?

Anyone with a scanner and a printer could whip up a fake.

Many on the forum could likely make a better fake than those posted above.



I would like to thank haris1 for making this thread; admittedly, I feel a bit naïve for having no idea this was an issue in the hobby.

 

[eveled]

Any effort to document fakes, and mistakes. Will lead to better forgeries. Just saying, this is a public forum.

I'm sticking to my original statement, "Buy the gun, not the story" in this case the box, and label are part of the story.

I personally never understood the need to collect the boxes, and would not pay extra for a box. Mostly because the box especially the card board ones are too fragile, and too likely to get destroyed in my possession. LOL!

Of course the above statement is for my collection, and I in no way intend to judge others. Even though I don't seek out boxes, the ones I do end up with I could never throw away.

 

[g8rb8]

HA! As real as 3 dollar bills!!!

SMITH & WESSON STAINLESS 65-3 3" 357 EXC in BOX : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

SMITH & WESSON 645 45ACP RR, W/O Exc in Box : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com

I did find something interesting. He has nice guns and all the ones with these kind of labels say "Exc in Box"

seller does have some that say "orig box" and they are righteous labels

Seller knows what he is doing

Haris1,
I suspect you notice in one of the links you provided to the auctions in the INS field on the end label the black stamped 28-1 inside a black circle similar to the end label of the box for the Model 18-4 you presented in your original post to start this thread? Seems very deceptive to me --- beyond merely placing a modern label and filling the blanks in order to identify the gun. The average Joe would think, wow this box has the inspector's stamp.

 

[TTSH]

A very, VERY disturbing thread. I find it particularly disturbing that I can't tell the difference between real and fake about 90% of the time.

I'm up for any effort that will help identify the worst offenders and help protect forum membership from these frauds... but like some have said, any public effort to point out the differences is just going to be used by the frauds to make their fake labels even better.

So please, has anyone got a workable answer to this mess? Or are most of us just helpless potential victims.

 

[jjbrewst1]

A very, VERY disturbing thread. I find it particularly disturbing that I can't tell the difference between real and fake about 90% of the time.



I'm up for any effort that will help identify the worst offenders and help protect forum membership from these frauds... but like some have said, any public effort to point out the differences is just going to be used by the frauds to make their fake labels even better.



So please, has anyone got a workable answer to this mess? Or are most of us just helpless potential victims.

A good start would be to not buy from this seller which would encourage and finance his practice. What I don't understand is the seller has a lot of positive feedback. Which means his fakes are in the hands of collectors that probably have no idea.

 

[haris1]

Haris1,
I suspect you notice in one of the links you provided to the auctions in the INS field on the end label the black stamped 28-1 inside a black circle similar to the end label of the box for the Model 18-4 you presented in your original post to start this thread? Seems very deceptive to me --- beyond merely placing a modern label and filling the blanks in order to identify the gun. The average Joe would think, wow this box has the inspector's stamp.

I didnt see that- but now that you point it out. There is no question that whoever made up this label had DECEPTION in mind!!!!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=482885299

Fellow members: When S&W went to hinged one piece boxed, were they still using hand written labels???

 

[g8rb8]

Fellow members: When S&W went to hinged one piece boxed, were they still using hand written labels???

When S&W went to hinged one piece boxed, were they still using hand written labels??

Hopefully enough members could chime in to say they bought new examples as queried that we could say for sure if it happened.

I've had the same question. Inquiring minds want to know.I think I have seen a couple of one-piece boxes circa 1983-1997 with hand-written end labels that looked legitimate. The couple I recall would have been appropriate in that the guns were from the mid-1980's in the transition from the two piece boxes with hand-written labels to the one-piece boxes with machine/computer generated labels.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Fellow members: When S&W went to hinged one piece boxed, were they still using hand written labels???

The answer is YES. On a very limited bases, and only on guns I could positively date to 1981. I've never seen a handwritten label on a one-piece box newer than this, but I suppose it's possible they exist.

 

[Tyree1867]

Thank you for starting this thread. It and all the knowledgeable comments are extremely helpful.

 

[Mike McLellan]

I've had days when I couldn't distinguish waxed fruit from real fruit until I noticed the funny after-taste. I'm hopelessly ignorant when it comes to S&W boxes. That's why I only have one, and presume it must be a fake.
Blank labels serve only one purpose; to deceive.

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

This is the First I have seen of the computer generated labels.Yet another reason to stay away from The 80's Guns.