Big Bore Handgun Heavyweights Update

[maglvr]

Just think...

How insanely popular the poor, misunderstood .480 Ruger would have become, IF, it had been marketed as the ".480 Penetrator", ".480 Goliath" or the ".480X480 S-R MAG." with loads that had 480 grain bullets, traveling at 1000-1100fps.
Then concentrate the advertising hype on penetration, and show it compared to other standard ("hyper-velocity") cartridges.
Why the folks at Ruger would still be trying to fill the initial orders! With a little common sense, it could have been the next .44 Magnum.

 

[flat top]

MMA10mm; A buddy of mine who has all the computer ballistics programs and pressure test equipment that anyone could ask for, ran my original "goal" load (for the modified 16.5" 444)...a 325 at 2050. That load produced the muzzle energy of a 30-06...at 150 yards!!!!(which is also my max distance for large game for my 444). Your 280/285 loads would be comparable! That, is a lot of power, and will easily down anything on this continent! A fella I know took a huge moose with his 444 and a 290 grain cast at your approximate velocities, and a large black bear weighing 500+. In both cases, all it took was one shot, and the deed was done! The 444 is one of the most underated cartridges, but for those of us who "know" this cartridge and its potential, it is the end all for large game at close to medium ranges.

 

[flat top]

madlvr; You also have noticed that the manufacturers marketing tactics are dismal at best. They just dont "read" the market very well, and one thing for sure, the dont listen to their customers! I guess they know whats best for us. I own a Smith 696-0, and what a sweet revolver it is. Its out of production and according to Smith will not be produced again....why.... was it "too good"?!?!?! I would guarantee you that if they did produce the 696 again it would sell like hot cakes! I also contacted Smith about an X-frame in 44 mag....no intention of doing that....so, I just went and bought a Redhawk...a 44 magnum handgun that is built like a tank and can handle those very popular heavy bullet loads that would rattle the inards out of an N frame. The X frame could easily handle those loads...but, what do I know! I could go from one manufacturer to the next, but why waste the time! We, the shooting public, know what trips our trigger, and we do like to see our favorite firearms makers succeed in the market place, but, if they wont listen, what are we to do. I guess this is what happens when "bean counters", not shooters, run a firearms business!

 

[sonny]

Hey FT, I'm glad you got your Redhawk .44. What bbl-length did you come up with? I saw that you had placed a trade ad for your 629 3" and almost called you, but I like my Redhawk too much. I'm not surprised that you didn't want to get rid of your 696; I like mine also.
Keep up the good work. I'm still waiting on my big bullets but they should be here shortly, so that I can participate (johnny come lately) in your project.
Sonny

 

[flat top]

Hey sonny! This will be my second Redhawk. I have a blued 5 1/2" barreled 44 Mag already, and the gentleman that is doing the deal for the Smith is trading me a 4" barreled 44 Mag. I loved my Smith 2 1/2" 44 Mag, but, I just didnt feel right thinking about shooting those heavyweight bullets in it (so I didnt), and, rather than ruin a good gun, I decided to let it go (as much as I hated to). The 696 is wifey's gun, and I am not prepared to pay for a divorce if I get rid of it!!! So, it will be in the family for a long time I am sure. I do have plans for the new Redhawk, but, more on that later. When you start shooting those 405's let me know your impression, and if you get to do any penetration tests keep me posted. We need to compile all the info we can get on this bullet and load.

 

[zan516]

FT,

As soon as I can locate some 300 grainers for the 41 I'll give them a try. I can find 275 gr Keith type, but I think I'll wait until I find the 300 grain WFN. I'm looking at the 800-1000fps range. The penetration was great when I used that range on my 454 Casull (300gr and 335gr). Through and through penetration on the whitetails I've taken in the past, and I didn't get "beaten up" in the process.

Since this is on the "back burner", it may be a little while until I get a chance to try it. I will pass it on when I have some results.

todd

 

[flat top]

zan516; My favorite deer load (and defense load) for the 44 mag is a 250 Keith at 1000 fps. I had the same results on deer as you!!! The only thing I could think of that would better that load a bit would be your 300 at 1000 idea! For any large bore handgun, 41 mag and up, I think that anything over a 300 at 1000 would be "overkill" for deer sized game....just not needed.....yet, still a very controllable load. Here is a beartoothbullets.com 300 grain 41 mag bullet. The stats say that this bullet will not stabilize in a Smith because of twist rate, but, will work very well in a Ruger. Beartooths next lighter weight is a 285, which will work well in all handguns. As far as the 300 not stabilizing.........I had fears that the 405 in the 44 Mag would not stabilize as well (the twist in my Redhawk was not at all suitable for a bullet that long), but my testing proved that wrong (a good thing). All you can do is give it shot. Also, Beartooth uses an alloy that will not break up on bone as some other hardcasts will, and this has been proven time and time again at all velocities...including those produced by high power rifles. For hunting purposes I "trust" the Beartooth to get the job done no matter what I use them in! Give Marshall a call out at Beartooth and he will guide you in selecting the proper size (bullet diameter) and maximum weight for your 41 mag. Well, when you can find the time, let the testing begin! I would also like to see other calibers of big bore handguns represented in this test of heaviest for caliber handgun bullets at 1000 fps. So far our results with the 44 mag and the 405 have shown great promise, and I think that there is no reason why this formula would not work out well for other calibers...and please do keep us posted on your test results!!!!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Anything over 280 is just too much in the .41. I have owned several, and still have a mint S prefix 57. The S&W's won't stabilize anything over 280, and even those are iffy. On top of that, in the Smith at least, you will need to replace the rear sight blade for a lower one with these heavyweights if you want to be able to regulate your sights to hit point of aim. Ask me how I know.

 

[zan516]

G 4 F,

Thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind as I experiment.

todd

 

[flat top]

zan516; Keep us in mind when you are done, and please report back whether the results are good or bad. Thanks! FT

 

[zan516]

FT,

You will be the first to know. Thanks for giving me the incentive to do something that has been running around in the dark crevices of my mind for quite some time now.

todd

 

[flat top]

Thanks bud.....I am totally unfamiliar with the 41 mag, but a forum friend who recently passed away, took just about everything under the sun with his...large game too, bear, moose, etc. He really liked the cartridge, but, I dont remember what weight bullet he was using......

 

[flat top]

Another test done!

In another comparison effort, we managed to fire the 44 cal. 405 at 1020 fps through 12 one gallon jugs...the bullet lodged in the 13th jug. This was to get a diffinitive depth of penetration in one type of media for comparisons. The originator of this load told me that the best penetration that he has ever gotten was with his 45-70, shooting a 525 grain bullet at 1550 fps. He said that the 45 cal 525 penetrated 12 jugs and lodged in the 13th!!!! Next test will be "The Box".....bone, wet mass, and gel....should be interesting to see what this load will do there!!! Here (photos) is the recovered slug with a loaded round and the Redhawk used for testing., and my buddy Joe, pointing out the penetration point. Keep in mind that this kind of testing only proves "comparisons from one media", and nothing concrete on how the load will penetrate on a game animal. "The Box" will get us closer to that goal.

 

[Jellybean]

zan516, Years ago I found an RCBS mould #82039 for a .41/300gr/FN bullet. It was for some kind of rifle and the bullets came out between .410"-.409".

I cast a few and used some data from Hodgdon #26 using H110. The manual didn't list an OAL for their bullet so I worked up slowly to the max charge. I was a little wary of shooting these things in my S&Ws as they were listing a max velocity of 1267 fps out of a 6" Ruger, so I shot them from a Marlin 1894S.

Accuracy was reasonable on paper as I recall, but the other test was much more memorable. Someone had dumped an old refridgerator off at the range and it became a test medium. Nothing I shot at it would penetrate completely through one side, except a pre-fragmented .41AE round which didn't live long enough to get to the other side, which is another story. Then I shot it with the 300 gr. .41 mag. It was laying on it's back with the door laying open to the opposite side from me. The bullet penetrated both sides and the door and cut down a small sapling down behind the range and kept going. The rifle recoiled like a shotgun but the rounds ejected like butter.

Just in case you want to know.

 

[zan516]

FT,

Your results sound very good. It seems like when you start off with a bullet that is already "expanded" all you have to do is drive it through, and speed isn't a huge factor. Looking forward to the rest of your tests.

JB,

I will accept all the information I can get my hands on. Thanks.

todd

 

[flat top]

zan516; You hit the nail on the head! Folks like Linebaugh and others have been preaching this for years (heavy bullets at moderate velocities for extreme penetration results).........thing is, most folks dont listen, and still pursue those crazy, hot, top end loads, "thinking" that they "need" that to get good bullet performance!

 

[Scrapper]

Excellent test FT. I love tests like these and can't wait to see your bone box test. Brings back memories for me FT thanks. keep the good info coming. I'm still trying to get to the range, I think I'm gonna be going in the next few weeks to do an accuracy test on the 360 Cast Performance WLN GC's I have loaded. I do want to go heavier but I have these to try out first. This is a thread I always come back to. Have a Great Day, It's raining here so I'm staying in LOL.

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; I would be interested in seeing what kind of penetration those 365's would get using the gallon jug test..........What velocity are you striving for with those?

 

[Scrapper]

FT,

I'm using the data I have from the Lee die set I have. It has 35-38gns of H110 Max velocity of 1836fps. I have started low as usual but I don't think I'm gonna be able to do a viable penetration test till I get out to MO. Also I need to correct myself They are 360gn WLN GC, I put these on the scale and most of the bullets are 355gn, which is no problem to me.

Also I'm gonna try Lil Gun@ 36-40gns Max Velocity of 1882fps.

To answer your question,

What velocity are you striving for with those?

I would like to keep it at the lowest load that gives me good penetration and accuracy, I'm actually not sure what that would be yet. Like you guys I want to keep it shootable so as to make a second shot easier. Of Course, I'm always open for suggestions from knowledgeable people.

EDIT:

Lee also has a load for 395gn WLN GC using Lil Gun@ 33-36.8gns Max Velocity 1796fps. Of course I don't know exactly what gun they used for this Data, really I need to chrono these myself at some point.

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; A buddy of mine who has taken large game, including the big bears....one taken attacking him, Moose, etc, told me that a 300 grain bullet at 1300, or a 325 grian bullet at 1250 will take any animal in North America....and that is out of a 44 mag!!! Linebaughs large dangerous game load is something like a 310/320 at 1250.........I would imagine that a 355 at about the same velocities would give like performance. It would be interesting to see how your 355's at top velocity would compare against the same at that 1200/1250 velocity in a side by side penetration test with like media. I have a suspicion that the lower velocity loads would penetrate more, but not put on the show that the higher velocities would give! One thing I did notice as our testing has continued, is that our 405 at 1020 "does" penetrate like nobodies business, but, as far as impacting the media with great force/energy (as a higher velocity bullet would)...it does not...it just hits and plows on through....nothing spectacular...just great penetration. I hope you get a chance to test your loads while you are here in Missouri...If you want some spectators let me know! Keep us posted!