Big Bore Handgun Heavyweights Update

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An update for those of you that showed interest in this project. I received the next batch of 405 grain .432's for testing in the 44 Mag. I will get them loaded up this week and as soon as the temps here warm up into the 30's (a heat wave compared to what we have been experiencing), I will get out to the range and continue testing. Here is a comparison photo with "lesser" bullets. From right to left: 240, 250, 300, 325, and the 405.

 

[Scrapper]

That 405 looks really close (just a little longer) to the LBT Cast Performance 360gn WFNGC I'm gonna be trying out for my 460 S&W.

When I weighed these bullets a-lot of them weighed 355gn.

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; I would be interested in your results....and, dont forget the penetration tests...an important step in the process!

 

[Jellybean]

Is that three crimp grooves? And if so, which are you going to be using?

 

[flat top]

Jelly; It depends on the gun (cylinder lenght) that you shoot the 405 from. For my Redhawk (the test gun) I use the second from the top....for a Super Blackhawk, or a Smith I would crimp between (this is where a Lee Factory Crimp Die comes in handy) the top and second crimp groove....seating the bullet to sit about .050 behind the front of the cylinder face. Because of the length of the bullet you want to get as much of that bullet out of the case (to make room for more powder, and proportionately lower pressures) as you can, but, you do not want the bullet to sit flush with the forward face of the cylinder. The set back of .050 keeps the hot flash gap gases from melting a portion of the nose of the bullets in adjacent cylinders, and thus affecting accuracy.

 

[sonny]

a Smith I would crimp between (this is where a Lee Factory Crimp Die comes in handy) the top and second crimp groove....

If you crimp between the grooves, won't you have bullets jumping the crimp with recoil?
Sonny

 

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Sonny; The bullets will not jump crimp "if" you use the Lee Crimp Die, and crimp the way I do (heavy crimp as pictured in other posts). The Lee Crimp Die will actually create its own crimp groove on the bullet, and not distort the driving band when doing so. This is why I like the Lee Crimp Die so much...it is a very versatile tool for those of us that work outside of normal or standard reloading procedures.

 

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Another update.

Well, I had the 405 grain 44 Mag bullet loads out to the range, and working up from the minimum charge this is the best group/load that was shot that day. I really didnt think that this heavy, long bullet would do this well in the Redhawk given that the twist is a bit shy for a bullet of this weight and lenght. But, being "open minded" I decided to pursue this excersize at the insistance of a friend. I shot at 20 yards (measured) which is perfect for my old eyes (cant hit what ya cant see). Most of the groups ranged from 1" to 2" depending on the charge weight, but as I came up with the charge I worked into this fine group. Velocity was 1020, and that is ballpark to where we need this bullet to perform. So, reloading and experimentation does have its surprises, and sometimes they are good! The maximum measurement of the group (I threw in the flier cause I am an honest guy), was about .750, and the cluster measured about .500, so, this would equate to one ragged hole at 25 yards, and well under 2" at 50 yards. The testing will continue as time permits with this load, but, I wanted to share this with you.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

That's interesting, and I think you guys are on to something cool here. It can be hard to get guys to abandon their old beliefs about what is useful and what isn't, but when it comes to penetration with acceptable recoil levels, a 400 grain class bullet moving at 1,000 fps + is going to penetrate well, while not kicking you out from under your beanie. The Redhawk will take much stouter loads than these, but these should still work quite well in any decent M-29 in sound shape if someone chooses to use them. After all, they are a specialty item and not for every day shooting, but perfect for deep penetration on large game at close range.

Still, I bet you'll hear from the nay sayers.

 

[Scrapper]

Excellent job FT

 

[flat top]

G4F; Our goal is to produce a bullet/load combination, that will as you say, penetrate well at close range, yet, allow for controllable double action followup shots....a last ditch dangerous game load for a backup revolver. Any revolver that is capable of throwing this 405 grain pill at 1000 fps should be able to get the job done, but, there is still much work to do. Now that I have an accurate load at the intended velocity, the next step will be a trajectory plot. This load needs to be able to produce a reasonable trajectory out to 50 yards or so. Comparing it to lighter heavy weights (300 and 325 grain bullets), this 405 load looks like it will be within sight adjustment for most revolvers, and if the trajectory remains reasonably flat in comparison, this load will show much promise. Keep in mind that in tests with this heavyweight, others in our group have found that with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, that the 405 is still traveling at well over 900 fps at 50 yards, so, we are hopeful that it will carry good velocity/trajectory beyond that, but our goal is close range self defense. I hope to accomplish the plot this coming weekend. If all works out, then the rapid fire double action controllability tests will come next, followed by penetration tests in media that replicates the structure and mass of large game animals. When all is said and done, we will make a final decision as to whether this bullet/load is up to the job, and meets the goals that our group has set, and if so, we will share the load data here so others with a need for this type of load will have access to the information............As far as "naysayers".........I would encourage anyone who can bring forth concrete physical evidence as to why this load would be unsuitable for the intended purpose to do so. Our small group has done this before, and with well over 200 years of combined experience we feel that we have covered all the bases....enough to make a verifyable decision as to whether this bullet and load will serve the purpose it was intended for.

 

[flat top]

Thanks Scrapper! We are giving it an honest shot.....stay tuned, there is more to come.

 

[Scrapper]

Looks like you may be successful in all the aspects you have in mind for this load. I know you still have more tests to run but with what I saw there in your photos it looks real promising.

I'm still wondering what these large lead pills (360 gn WLNGC) are going to do out my 460 with the "gain twist" 1 in 20". I'm patient tho I may be going out to shoot in a few weeks.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

FT,
where could I get my hands on some of those things? I would like to conduct some tests using the M-29 platform. I have several of them of varying barrel lengths to try them in, and at that velocity level I believe that I can still be well under SAAMI spec pressures for the .44. I have plenty of referrence sources on heavy for caliber bullets to cross referrence/extrapolate from.

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; We will wring the daylights out of this load to insure that it does everything to meet our goals. If it does not, we will share that info as well. Over the years, I have come to realize that failing at something does have its plus side....its all a learning experience whether you win or lose. We appreciate your support, and keep us posted on your tests with those 360's!!! Big bullets are a "blast", arent they?!?!? LOL!

 

[flat top]

G4F; PM sent!

 

[flat top]

More testing completed

We sent the 405 through some water jugs last weekend to do a comparison test with a known penetrator....the 45-70, 425 grain bullet at 1850 fps. This bullet has consistantly penetrated 9 one gallon water jugs, and is captured by the ninth jug. We shot the 405 at 1020 fps out of the 44 mag Redhawk into 9 water filled jugs, and it not only penetrated the jugs, but continued another 30 yards down range and buried itself in the backstop. More "true to life" penetration testing will be in the near future. We also did a trajectory plot to see if the trajectory would be suitable for the intended purpose. With a zero at 25 yards....from the muzzle to 50 yards all bullets will hit within a tad over 2 3/4"...at 65 yards the bullet hit about 6" high, so this bullet is carrying a lot of momentum downrange, but, for the intended purpose of a close up backup load for the big bears, this trajectory is more than suitable, and, would even do well as a hunting load within standard handgun range. Also, there was some doubt about the 405 stabilizing at these velocities in a 1-20 twist barrel. The targets have shown no indication of that, and the bullet flies straight and true, with no evidence of upset. More to come.....

 

[Scrapper]

Also, there was some doubt about the 405 stabilizing at these velocities in a 1-20 twist barrel. The targets have shown no indication of that, and the bullet flies straight and true, with no evidence of upset. More to come.....

Nice report FT. Thanks and I bet your having a-lot of fun too. I know I would.

We used to soak news paper bundles out in the rain and then stack them up about 5-6 ft deep to do our penetration and mushrooming test. A friend of mine did a test with 3 feet wet papers @25yds with the 454 Casull and he said it blew a whole in the papers about 10" in diameter and he never found the bullet. lol

P.S. I'm not sure of the actual numbers on the test he did but I do know he was impressed and the boy knows how to shoot and hunt. He (in his mid 60's) goes by himself to Maine and always brings big deer home. Just this year he brought 2 Nice sized Bucks home...Dang he is good and an inspiration to me as I learned how to do a-lot about wrenching, hunting, fishing and morals.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Cool! Keep posting on this Flat Top. I know there are several of us here who are interested in this project, and what you find out. This may not be a load for everyone, but some of us actually may be able to use this info to our advantage sometime.

I have used the wet newsprint medium for years, and it is very consistant in terms of results. It may not be exactly like flesh and bone, but we have actually used animal bones taked from our game that we have taked in the field, and placed them in between layers of wet print, and it works quite well. I have used this for every caliber I have owned from .22LR up to .416 Remington. I haven't tried my .458 Lott in it for some reason even though I have had it for 20 years, but I already know what the results will be. This method is very useful in dertermining what one bullet vs. another will do in near game tissue conditions. It takes about 2 1/2-3' of wet newsprint to stop most any centerfire bullet that is of the expanding variety. 4-5' will stop most all handgun bullets. There are some exceptions to this though, and they are the .475, .500 Linebaugh's, and most likely the .460, and .500 S&W's with hardcast bullets. These will very nearly always penetrate through 4 1/2-5' of wet print and keep on going.

 

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Scrapper; From what I have been told by folks who have actually taken the large bears, moose, etc, is that the use of bone, thoroughly soaked newspaper, denim, etc, makes about the closest "test media" to the real thing. One of my buddies who had hunted Alaska for years, and had actually been involved in numerous brown bear hunts, attacks, etc, and had also taken some good sized moose, gave me his recipe for a penetration box...I am going to use that to test this 405. Regardless of "comparisons" the 405 load must stand on its own, and penetrate sufficiently to get the job done. The nice thing about this load is the ease and speed of followup shots...something that has always been an issue with full bore 44 mag loads...and, I am sure is an issue with other large magnums. Again, the key here is having enough power to penetrate to the central nervous system/brain, but still allow the shooter those fast follow up shots. Also, one of the guys that has been working on this with us, is heading to Alaska this fall, and he hopes to do some testing on the real thing....Linebaugh Seminars have proven that it doesnt take monster loads to get the job done, so, we have high hopes for this "balanced" combination. More shall be revealed as the testing takes place.