Big Bore Handgun Heavyweights Update

[flat top]

G4F; Will do! This is not only a 44 Mag thing....there are other large bore handgun cartridges that can benefit from what we are doing here. A very heavy for caliber bullet that could be utilized at low to midrange velocities to accomplish this same task (penetration and controllability) would be universal to any large bore handgun....the 45 Cal comes to mind. If this all works out, any 400 grain bullet at the 1000 fps mark should be able to accomplish the feat...but, only time and testing will tell. I believe I heard you say on another post that you own a 475 Freedom Arms.........there is a 420 grain cast bullet made for the 475 (maybe some that go beyond that), that driven at 1000 fps or so, would have the same effect (maybe better) to that of the 44 Mag with the 405. Once we have this proven (or disproven as the case could possibly be) with the 44 Mag, I would encourage folks like you, Scrapper, Sonny, etc, that have some large bore handguns of other calibers to pursue what we have done. A "full blown" test of other calibers would be very interesting!!! By the way, in talking to the "originators" of this idea (who are also performing tests), we have yet to see anybody who has pursued a venture like this, so, it would be nice to see others get involved with different caliber handguns...the more, the merrier.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I know that John Taffin mentions in his book Big Bore Handguns, that he took an 1100-1200 lb buffalo with his 4 3/4" .475 Linebaugh Model 83 with the .480 Ruger cylinder installed. He used a 410 CPBC at roughly 1100 fps to do it, and had complete penetration through the shoulders, in and out. That's about what your load should do as well, and maybe even better due to the better sectional density of the .44 bullet.

 

[flat top]

G4F; In discussions that our group has had from time to time, and from info gleaned from Linebaugh by a friend....the magic number as far as velocity seems to be that 1000 to 1200 fps mark, regardless of what bullet weight is used.....the larger the game, the heavier the bullet, but the velocities remain in that range. For years, I shot the 44 mag at top end loads, but, a 250 grain Keith at 1000 fps changed my way of thinking forever. I took two deer with that load, and in both cases the bullets penetrated fully...dead is dead. It makes sense to me that a heavier bullet in that same velocity range would get the job done on larger game, and there are a few that have proven that out. If memory serves me, Linebaughs old 44 Mag load for the big bears is a 310 grain cast at 1200 fps, and he should know more than anyone about "penetration"!!! I do know one thing for sure, "overdriving" bullets will cause deformation of the bullet upon impact, and actually reduces penetration. You are on point about the sectional density as well. A lot of factors determine the penetration capabilities of a given load, but, blistering velocities in a handgun, and at handgun ranges are proving to be nothing more than a waste of powder, and palm skin. This is why we feel that this 405 at 1000 fps will work well for the purpose....now all we need to do is prove that out.

 

[maglvr]

G4F; Our goal is to produce a bullet/load combination, that will as you say, penetrate well at close range, yet, allow for controllable double action followup shots....a last ditch dangerous game load for a backup revolver. Any revolver that is capable of throwing this 405 grain pill at 1000 fps should be able to get the job done, but, there is still much work to do. Now that I have an accurate load at the intended velocity, the next step will be a trajectory plot. This load needs to be able to produce a reasonable trajectory out to 50 yards or so. Comparing it to lighter heavy weights (300 and 325 grain bullets), this 405 load looks like it will be within sight adjustment for most revolvers, and if the trajectory remains reasonably flat in comparison, this load will show much promise. Keep in mind that in tests with this heavyweight, others in our group have found that with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, that the 405 is still traveling at well over 900 fps at 50 yards, so, we are hopeful that it will carry good velocity/trajectory beyond that, but our goal is close range self defense. I hope to accomplish the plot this coming weekend. If all works out, then the rapid fire double action controllability tests will come next, followed by penetration tests in media that replicates the structure and mass of large game animals. When all is said and done, we will make a final decision as to whether this bullet/load is up to the job, and meets the goals that our group has set, and if so, we will share the load data here so others with a need for this type of load will have access to the information............As far as "naysayers".........I would encourage anyone who can bring forth concrete physical evidence as to why this load would be unsuitable for the intended purpose to do so. Our small group has done this before, and with well over 200 years of combined experience we feel that we have covered all the bases....enough to make a verifyable decision as to whether this bullet and load will serve the purpose it was intended for.

Just started reading this, VERY interesting indeed!
I can't wait to get to the penetration tests, I suspect it might read something like.......... 8 cows, side by side, or 2.5 cows, end to end!

 

[flat top]

Maglvr; I dont think the results will read "that" good....LOL! I am doing some research now, trying to find all the items necessary to put together a penetration box that will replicate a large game carcass. A friend who attends the Linebaughs every year...has taken many large game animals, and has been involved in bear attacks, etc, has given me the recipe that he uses to test his handgun loads, that have proven reliable over the years. Even he has shown interest in what we are doing....His loads with lighter bullets, and at higher velocities, are a bit steeper than ours, and he admits that follow up shot controllability could be improved. Also, one of the fellas that is working with us on this will be carrying this load on his next trip to Alaska, and will try to get some real penetration tests done on large game carcasses. This excersize is very interesting indeed, and we will keep you posted.

 

[sonny]

My 435gr LFN in my .500 Linebaugh, at 1000 fps, traveled through 30" of soaking wet newspaper at the Linebaugh seminar in New Braunfels, TX, about 8 yrs ago or so.
Glad you guys are working so hard on this. I'm waiting on some 405's for my .44 Mag.
Have a good day; company coming...gotta run.
Sonny

 

[Scrapper]

Scrapper; From what I have been told by folks who have actually taken the large bears, moose, etc, is that the use of bone, thoroughly soaked newspaper, denim, etc, makes about the closest "test media" to the real thing. One of my buddies who had hunted Alaska for years, and had actually been involved in numerous brown bear hunts, attacks, etc, and had also taken some good sized moose, gave me his recipe for a penetration box...I am going to use that to test this 405. Regardless of "comparisons" the 405 load must stand on its own, and penetrate sufficiently to get the job done. The nice thing about this load is the ease and speed of followup shots...something that has always been an issue with full bore 44 mag loads...and, I am sure is an issue with other large magnums. Again, the key here is having enough power to penetrate to the central nervous system/brain, but still allow the shooter those fast follow up shots. Also, one of the guys that has been working on this with us, is heading to Alaska this fall, and he hopes to do some testing on the real thing....Linebaugh Seminars have proven that it doesnt take monster loads to get the job done, so, we have high hopes for this "balanced" combination. More shall be revealed as the testing takes place.

Excellent !!!!!

 

[zan516]

FT,

Keep us posted, it sounds interesting. I'm running 250gr in my 41's @800fps and am seriously looking at the 300gr.

todd

 

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Sonny; Keep me posted on your results!
Scrapper; We are trying!
zan516; There are so many variables in testing penetration compared to penetration on actual game animals, that all we can do is "guesstimate" through testing what will occure in a real life situation. Nothing is written in stone. My one friend who has had first hand experience in the "real world" told me that any handgun capable of pushing a 300 grain cast bullet (suitable for the purpose of hunting...which is a whole nuther story) at 1300 fps, or a 325 grain bullet at 1250 fps has enough oomph to get the job done...and, has proven that out.....but, in my working with these loads, even in a large, heavy Redhawk, quick follow up shots are hard to make in a timely manner (speed counts!). As I mentioned above....On the flip side of that there are those of us that believe that there is a "magic" velocity (around 1000 fps) that will produce phenominal penetration on all size game animals, and, increasing the weight of the bullet to suit the size of the game is all that is needed...while the velocity stays about the same....and those quick followup shots are easier to make. In your 41 Mag, you can push a 300 grain bullet from 1000 to 1225 or so (depending on barrel lenght...and your particular firearms strength), and maybe even beyond that, and the only way you would know what penetrates best is to run your own series of tests. So feel free to jump on the wagon, test those 300's in your 41, and report the results. I am sure that there are many 41 Mag owners who would appreciate your efforts!

 

[maglvr]

Many shooters have no idea that, past the magical 1000fps-1200fps. zone........The faster they go / The faster they slow(in the target that is, aka. faster = LESS penetration, especially with a hardcast, flat nose).
After all, this is America, the faster something is, the better it has to be! advertizers have programmed that in our minds for decades.
Just one more reason I haven't bought a gun rag on over 15 years now
Happy testing and keep 'em heavy and slowwwwwwwww! Can't wait for some penetration tests.
Maglvr

 

[flat top]

maglvr; I agree with you 100%............a good case in point...The 450/400 Nitro Express has taken every game animal in the world including the largest pachyderms that Africa has to offer. The standard load is a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps. (not exactly a blistering barrel burner) The 450/400 NE is an old cartridge...but, within its range it is a proven cartridge, and to my knowledge, the worlds game have not gotten any bigger or tougher as the years have passed....it can do the same job today as it proved itself capable of at its inception, and has always been considered the "standard" as an all round African game caliber.........but, listen to the gun "gurus" today, and if you are not shooting the most new-fangled, computer controlled, laser guided, ultra high velocity, depleted uranium jacketed bullet, at speeds that are guaranteed to eat your barrel alive, then, I am sorry, but you couldnt kill a chipmunk let alone a large dangerous game animal! I think we live in a society that requires something new every now and then just to keep folks interested, increase profits for the industry, and keep gun writers busy, and out of trouble! Just think about all the trouble they could cause if they had nothing to write about!!!

 

[Scrapper]

I like the conversation here. I know what ya mean about the American public liking speed and it's now selling these new guns like the 460 XVR's. I gotta say it did catch my eye and so I looked and bought, but not for the sole reason as for the speed which is why I spend much time to make sure I find guys like you that shoot the heavy lead.

When I looked into the 460 XVR I looked mostly on the internet for info since there isn't a bunch of people around me that know about or even want to talk about firearms. In my search I found this page GunBlast 460 XVR I saw the versatility of ammo and it kinda sold me along with just the fact it was a Smith and Wesson.

Thanks for the very interesting conversation everyone.

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; I am not demeaning the 460 or any other new large bore handgun caliber (or any other gun for that matter)...I guess the real plus in owning such a gun, is its ability to push those big heavy for caliber bullets at enough of a velocity to get the job done. What gets to me, and maglvr brought this up, was that "some" gunwriters go off the deep end in professing that the higher the velocity the "better" the performance, and that is not the case at all. The way I feel about it is that for a given bullet weight, used within a given yard range/distance, there is a velocity that will allow the bullet to perform at its highest level, and meet the goals set forth by the reloader. Take this 405 we have been working with. At a 1000 fps velocity at the muzzle it will be traveling at about 900 fps at 50 yards. Lets say, that 405 will do everything it is supposed to do between 10 yards and 50 yards...If that bullet would be expected to perform at 100 yards, then the velocity would definately need to be increased. I am not a long range handgunner...I still use open sights (no scope) on my handguns, and I am limited by my old eyes....so, for me, if I need to reach out past 50 or 60 yards, I would be best suited with a rifle. For me, hot handgun loads would not serve good purpose, and for most handgunners that stay within 50 or 60 yards, a heavy bullet at a moderate velocity will get er done. A good case in point, but, it involves one of those new hot rifle calibers...a short, fat case, driving a light 6mm bullet at "high velocity". A buddy of mines son was "sold" on the caliber by a magazine article, and a salesman at (I wont mention the name of the chain store...but, one of the more popular). Anyway, its deer season, and along comes this huge 8 pointer. The son aims carefully, and squeezes off on the shoulder. The deer is hit and takes off running. Eight shots later, the poor deer is finally dead!!! Upon inspection of the carcass we found that not one of the shots penetrated or broke major bone when it was hit. This caliber/bullet/velocity combination was totally unsuitable for the purpose....but, the magazine article and the "salesman" said it was perfect for the job...because of its "high velocity". So, i guess the point I am trying to make here is that choosing a suitable caliber, bullet, load combination (for the purpose) is much more important than the "high velocity" hype we have to keep listening to. Like my dad always used to tell us kids..."there is a time, and a place for everything", and i guess that applies to shooting as well....and, my buddies sons new high velocity cartridge, was not correct for the time and the place! For many, many years, I have relied on my own experience, and the experience and advice of a trusted few....not gunwriters (although there are a "few" that I highly respect), the "industry" or a "salesman".

 

[Scrapper]

FT
I believe you are a way better writer than any of these magazines which BTW I do not buy. It seems to me you are like the guys I grew up with and I can tell that by the the way you write.

and as far as this concerned

What gets to me, and maglvr brought this up, was that "some" gunwriters go off the deep end in professing that the higher the velocity the "better" the performance, and that is not the case at all.

well I think we all know these kind of writer are Good BS'ers, cause I know for a fact that these heavy lead bullets have the inertia of a TRAIN and when they hit something they like to keep going LOL.

 

[flat top]

I think we all know these kind of writer are Good BS'ers, cause I know for a fact that these heavy lead bullets have the inertia of a TRAIN and when they hit something they like to keep going LOL.[/QUOTE]

You are 100% right on!!!! LOL!!!!

 

[MMA10mm]

Many shooters have no idea that, past the magical 1000fps-1200fps. zone........The faster they go / The faster they slow.
After all, this is America, the faster something is, the better it has to be! advertizers have programmed that in our minds for decades.
Just one more reason I haven't bought a gun rag on over 15 years now
Happy testing and keep 'em heavy and slowwwwwwwww! Can't wait for some penetration tests.
Maglvr

Precisely!! Great post! And as Flat Top has pointed out, these loads are not only more effective, but they're more fun to shoot and effective with faster follow-up shots!

I like the conversation here. I know what ya mean about the American public liking speed and it's now selling these new guns like the 460 XVR's. I gotta say it did catch my eye and so I looked and bought, but not for the sole reason as for the speed which is why I spend much time to make sure I find guys like you that shoot the heavy lead.

When I looked into the 460 XVR I looked mostly on the internet for info since there isn't a bunch of people around me that know about or even want to talk about firearms. In my search I found this page GunBlast 460 XVR I saw the versatility of ammo and it kinda sold me along with just the fact it was a Smith and Wesson.

Thanks for the very interesting conversation everyone.

I've got a really good buddy who bought a 460. When the X-frame first came out, I thought S&W should have made the cylinder window a 1/2" shorter, and just gone with the 500 Linebaugh as the 500 S&W worries too much about velocity / powder space. (Of course, the point above is so correct about "velocity sells" what else could S&W have done??)

Then, they came out with the 460, and my first reaction was WHY?!? Then, a buddy of mine bought one, and when we went to the range, I found so little recoil (due to the weight of the pistol) combined with trajectory that made 200 yard shots do-able, that I understood immediately what was going on... Even more velocity and lower recoi... S&W just sold thousands more pistols, regardless of their real efficacy...


Tagged to watch FT's progress. This is exciting. I've gone as heavy as a 335gr from an H&G mould, but that I loaded in the 444 Marlin, not in the 44 Mag. If this works out, I may try some in the 44 Mag. at "low" velocity. Might also be interesting in a Marlin 1894 Carbine...

 

[flat top]

MMA10mm

I am also a levergun nut! I run some pretty stiff loads in the Marlin 444 XLR that I modified to a longer COAL a few years ago. I can push a 325 grain bullet out of the 16.5" barrel at 2263 fps (and it still has a lot more to give)....about the same velocities as a 22/24 incher with no modifications. This XLR is short, very light (6.2 pounds...scoped, loaded, and slung), and very handy in the thick environment that I hunt in.............My next project will be another COAL modified 444 XLR, yet this project will keep the 24 inch barrel, and will be a standard weight rifle. It will be capable of pushing the same 405 grain bullet that we are now testing, to 2150 fps....the same ballistics as the 450/400 Nitro Express. I am going to call it my "Safari Grade" levergun! It will be capable of taking anything that walks this earth!!!.............Dont get me wrong here folks, velocity and power does have its place in the scheme of things, but, when it is used inappropriately it is just a waste of gun powder, and could possibly not do the job as intended.....Case in point: My deer load for the short barreled levergun is a 300 grain bullet at 1850 fps, and, for the distances I work within (very close), this load is perfect for the task...this load is also very popular with 45-70 hunters in my area. I "can" crank the 325 grainer up for larger North American game animals if the opportunity exists. The great thing about reloading is being able to "tailor" a specific load to a specific purpose. It is economical, saves wear and tear on the gun, and reloading components, and wear and tear on the shooter as well.

 

[Scrapper]

That's one nice lever gun.

Brings back memories of shooting my Dad's model 94 Winchester 30-30 when I was 7 yrs old. I remember My Dad and his friend told me to sit down (shoot from the knee) as they were behind me. They told me to stare at the center of the target and they were going to hand me the rifle (so I was not to look back at them). Dad handed me the rifle loaded and so I lined up and squeeeeeeeeeezed one off, the gun was unloaded and I flinched. Once they brought this to my attention (of course I knew what I had done) Dad taught me to squeeze without flinching in a series of these kinds shots, surprising me with a loaded or unloaded gun. Soon that day of about 100 shots I was an expert shot with that rifle. After that we went on to practice with rolling bouncing targets made from the cutouts that were saved from those round bathroom sink counters. You can really get good that way and it's fun.

Sorry I got off the subject but a thought was triggered LOL.

EDIT: They also used to send me into the thickest and I mean thickest briar bushes they could find to put up game, rabbits, grouse, pheasant and we even had around 7 beagles hunting at the same time. Some of these bushes we're so thick I could get in but then I would get stuck and really get P/O'ed LOL....one time I shot 3 rabbits in one of those briar patches that grow like a giant tent LOL. They worked me hard at a young age, it was tough but had it's rewards.

I made another thread dang it>>>>How did your Dad teach you how to shoot and hunt?

 

[flat top]

Scrapper; That was a good training excersize! Your dad knew what he was doing! On occasion, I will put a few rounds in one of my revolvers, close my eyes, turn the cylinder and close it. Then commence to shooting....It keeps me sharp. Never knowing when a live round or an empty cylinder will present itself.... helps me concentrate on sight alignment and trigger pull. Little excersizes like this done from time to time, and the moving targets that you mentioned (we use balloons on a windy day) can really keep a shooter on his game.

 

[MMA10mm]

I am also a levergun nut! I run some pretty stiff loads in the Marlin 444 XLR that I modified to a longer COAL a few years ago. I can push a 325 grain bullet out of the 16.5" barrel at 2263 fps (and it still has a lot more to give)....about the same velocities as a 22/24 incher with no modifications. This XLR is short, very light (6.2 pounds...scoped, loaded, and slung), and very handy in the thick environment that I hunt in.............My next project will be another COAL modified 444 XLR, yet this project will keep the 24 inch barrel, and will be a standard weight rifle. It will be capable of pushing the same 405 grain bullet that we are now testing, to 2150 fps....the same ballistics as the 450/400 Nitro Express. I am going to call it my "Safari Grade" levergun! It will be capable of taking anything that walks this earth!!!.............Dont get me wrong here folks, velocity and power does have its place in the scheme of things, but, when it is used inappropriately it is just a waste of gun powder, and could possibly not do the job as intended.....Case in point: My deer load for the short barreled levergun is a 300 grain bullet at 1850 fps, and, for the distances I work within (very close), this load is perfect for the task...this load is also very popular with 45-70 hunters in my area. I "can" crank the 325 grainer up for larger North American game animals if the opportunity exists. The great thing about reloading is being able to "tailor" a specific load to a specific purpose. It is economical, saves wear and tear on the gun, and reloading components, and wear and tear on the shooter as well.

FT, I like the way you think. My deer load for the 444 is a 250gr black talon (pulled from 44 Mag ammo) loaded to 1850fps. Because those bullets are rare & expensive, I practice with a 240gr JHP loaded the same, and I call that my "carbine load", because it is about the same as I get from a full-power load in a 44 Magnum carbine...

My full-power loads for the 444 Marlin are the 280gr Swift A-Frame with enough H322 to get 2250fps for my "Full-Power Expander load" and 285gr Lyman 429640 RNFP-GC with enough RL-7 for 2300fps as my "Penetrator load." I could go heavier (or lighter and faster), but these loads are fully capable of taking anything in North America at 150 yards or less. That suits me.