BPLE 115 +P+ in Model 59 question for ISPCpt and others

[imarangemaster]

Dusting off my 1975 vintage S&W Model 59 to use as a carry weapon on days I work at the local gun shop. Probably just a touch of 73 year old nostalgia, as I have other fine 9mms to choose from. I am a fan of 9BPLE (see below), and was going to carry it in my 59 as "duty loads." It won't be a steady diet, as I use Speer Blazer Brass 115s for practice with my 9s.

I searched, but can't find the thread where some range master shot thousands of rounds of 9 BPLE (or its predecessor 9BPIL) from a 59 or 39, with no ill effects. I think it was ISPCpt that mentioned it. Can anyone share the link to that conversation?

When I started carrying a 59 as an off duty as a Deputy sheriff from 1978 to 1979, then as a duty weapon at a southern Washington State PD from 1979 to 1981, I used the fine old Speer Lawman 100 grain JHP truncated cone style. From 1981 to 1989, I carried a department issued Model 59 as a duty weapon at another PD in the Seattle Area, and we were issued WW Silvertip as duty ammo.

Currently, 9BPLE 115 +P+ is my main carry ammo in my Glock 19 and Springfield Armory Hellcat. I also use it in my Ruger PCC 9 carbine, where it gives 1650 fps!

My second choice is federal the 147 grain HST, followed by 147 grain WW Ranger T-Series (Black Talon without the black paint)

Thanks in advance

 

[jsbethel]

Some discussion here - https://smith-wessonforum.com/threa...5-grain-in-2nd-3rd-gen.418287/#post-138398264

 

[ispcapt]

We never issued the 59. We went from the 39 to 439 then 459/469 for a short time then 5904/6904. We issued the BPLE when we were issued the 439 and then 459/469.
The story you are referring to with 80,000 rds involved one of our range guys shooting the W-W 115 gr +P+ in our issued 5904. I shot a lot, like many thousands of rds, of the W-W +P+ thru my issued 5904 and 6904 and my personally owned 459. We were issued the 439 at the time but those of us on SWAT could carry 459 if we bought our own. So I ran a lot of rds thru the 459. During those years we didn't shoot reloads or reduced power rds. Everything was duty ammo. I never had any problems with any of those guns with either the BPLE or W-W+P+. Can't recall anyone on the team that had gun problems either. That was over 40 years ago and I still shoot that 459 a lot.
The only thing I recall with the 59 was some cracked frames at the hole where the slide lock goes thru. They weren't our guns but some from another dept in the area. If you compare the 59 frame to the 459 frame you'll see that around that hole the frame is different.
I'm down to my last few boxes of BPLE. I need to order some more while it's still relatively cheap. Sort of, kind of cheap. It worked well for us.

 

[imarangemaster]

I have been using 115 grain 9BPLE for almost 10 years now. I agree it is surprisingly soft shooting. I shoot it better than the Speer Gold Dot 124 +P I used to shoot before I switched. The last time I compared the two, was shooting the 469 I had a couple years back. Rapid groups were about 1/3 to 1/2 smaller than the 124 grain Gold dot.

I suppose for grins, I could load it with the 100 grain Speer Lawman JHPs I used it the late 70s and early 80s. I found about a 1/3 of a box of the 100 grainers in my junk drawer

 

[imarangemaster]

I say my decision to carry it at the shop is nostalgia more than practicality. While I have an Armory full of new technology, my favorites are vintage, to say the least,

-Colt New Service .455 Webley (1915)
-Smith and Wesson Military and Police 4th model (1921)
-Colt 1911 Comercial (1921)
-C96 Broomhandle Mauser w/ stock (1930)
-USGI Saginaw M1 Carbine (1943)
-Early (walnut stock) Ruger 10-22 (1972)
-Smith & Wesson Model 59 (1975)
-Ruger LEO Mini-14 GB Model (1981)

 

[Rick H.]

My old agency used 115 +P+ and 127 +P+ Winchester loads for several years. I liked the load because the speed they generated was substantial at the time and it still is. Something like 1300+ FPS out of a pistol. I still use these rounds in my EDC Glocks and CZ's. In fact just yesterday I shot an HR-218 qualifying course with them and they worked great. No complaints at all. If you don't go crazy with the +P+ loads your pistol should do well with them, just watch for any unusual wear and replace the recoil spring regularly.

Rick H.

 

[imarangemaster]

I just found. box of Winchester Silvertips, too. Thats what I carried 1981 to 1989 in my issue 59 and 439. The original Silvertips (with aluminum jacket) got a well deserved bad reputation in the Miami FBI shootout. The current generation of Silvertips perform on a par with Gold Dot and HST.

 

[imarangemaster]

Here's my girl...

 

[imarangemaster]

I have 7 mags for it. 3 stainless 2nd/3rd gen and 4 Gen 1 blued. Has original box, VCI paper, manuals and cleaning kit and screw driver. I have a minty pair of grips for it, but not using them since it is a work gun. I did order some nice, thin checkered walunt grip just cause I like steel and wood....

 

[imarangemaster]

I was discussing the 59 and 9BPLE ammo on another firearms Forum, and inevitably the 1986 Miami FBI shootout with Platt and Matix was brought up. It was an epic gun battle, with a total of 145 shots being fired by both sides in less than 5 minutes. Many saw the Miami-Dade FBI shootout as a FAIL for the 59. Someone said Agent Dove's 459 jammed, causing him to be killed. Dove's 459 jammed because a .223 round from Platt's MIni-14 went through the silde while Dove was firing it at Matix. Urban myths seldom have root in reality.

The biggest fail of the S&W 9mms in that shooting was the early Winchester Silvertip ammo they issued. It had an aluminum jacket, and the biggest fail of the S&W 9mms in that shooting was the early Winchester Silvertip ammo they issued. It had an aluminum jacket and IIRC, had problems with interaction with powder, It totally failed to expand in real world situations. Back then, they shot 12" blocks of modeling clay, and did not use any material to simulate clothing. The shootout was partially responsible for the development of the FBI gelatin test protocol, which simulated real life better.

I was a rangemaster at a PD in the Seattle area when it happened, We issued the same ammo, but pulled it after the shoot out results came in. Winchester then when to version two if the Silverip with the improved shiny, non aluminum, silver jacket. Version three (the current) has improved pre-fail cuts in the jacket, and performs really well, on a par with Gold dot. Their current .38 Special Silvertip is excellent, even when shot from a 2" revolver.

One nice thing about the Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 grain, is that the bullet contour mimics ball ammo, and it will feed in anything that will feed FMJ. Federal did an excellent job in bullet design, and it tends to break up and create secondary wound channels.. I meets the FB! 12" to 18" penetration, and generally has 100% reliability in expansion, even when fired through heavy clothing. Prior to Federal's HST and Speer Gold Dot, it was arguably one of the best 9mm rounds out there, and they still produce it, 40+ years later.
problems with interaction with powder, It totally failed to expand in real world situations. Back then, they shot 12" blocks of modeling clay, and did not use any material to simulate clothing. The shootout was partially responsible for the development of the FBI gelatin test protocol, which simulated real life better.

I was a rangemaster at a PD in the Seattle area when it happen, We issued the same ammo, but pulled it after the shoot out results came in. Winchester then when to version two if the Silverip with the improved shiny, non aluminum, silver jacket. Version three (the current) has improved pre-fail cuts in the jacket, and performs really well, on a par with Gold dot. Their current .38 Special Silvertip is excellent, even when shot from a 2" revolver.

One nice thing about the Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 grain, is that the bullet contour mimics ball ammo, and it will feed in anything that will feed FMJ. Federal did an excellent job in bullet design, and it tends to break up and create secondary wound channels.. I meets the FB! 12" to 18" penetration, and generally has 100% reliability in expansion, even when fired through heavy clothing. Prior to Federal's HST and Speer Gold Dot, it was arguably one of the best 9mm rounds out there, and they still produce it, 40+ years later.

 

[ispcapt]

imarangemaster is correct about the early Silvertip.
In 1980 we issued the 115 gr Silvertip but only for a few months. 2 of our Troops were involved in a shootout with a biker near Joliet IL. The biker was wearing a leather vest over a leather jacket. He started shooting with a 5 shot .38 and the 2 Troops returned fire hitting the biker several times COM. When the biker had fired all 5 rounds he got back on his bike and then fell over dead.
Autopsy showed none of the Silvertips penetrated deep enough to hit any vital areas. They had expanded so fast they never penetrated. The biker had died of a heart attack. His arteries were nearly plugged and he was a heart attack waiting to happen. An unhealthy lifestyle was more fatal than the Silvertip.
Within hours of the autopsy we all got phone calls, I was off duty, and told to immediately quit carrying the Silvertip. Carry anything but the Silvertip until our Corporals came by with replacement ammo. A few days later we were issued Federal 115 gr BP. We carried the BP for a few months while our main range people were working with Federal developing the BPLE. We then went to the BPLE and carried it for several years until going to the W-W 115 gr +P+. W-W (Olin) was in IL just a few miles from our main range and we had people there constantly working on the W-W round. Both the BPLE and the W-W +P+ performed very well for us for a number of years.
The Silvertip performed exactly like it was designed. Rapid expansion, limited penetration. That was the FBI protocol at the time.
A few years after our shootout in Joliet with the Silvertip the FBI went to 9mm and was still preaching the rapid expansion, limited penetration gospel and that the Silvertip was the best round to meet that. 2 of our range guys packed up the case file of our 1980 shooting and took it to Quantico and met with their range people. They showed the FBI our results and that rapid expansion, limited penetration and the Silvertip were not what was needed. The FBI blew them off. At that time the FBI was using the ComputerMan model as their scientific approach. They told our people their scientific model proved rapid expansion, limited penetration was the most effective LE round. At that time we had been issuing the 9mm for 17 years and had shot more people with the 9mm than the FBI had and we had seen what worked, what didn't. The FBI didn't care. Their scientific ComputerMan told them different.
Then their Miami happened and they were surprised the Silvertip didn't perform as their scientific ComputerMan had predicted. Fortunately for us our 2 Troops in 1980 were unharmed. But they were against a 5 shot .38 and not 2 armed with rifles.
What would have happened had the FBI listened to our people and not been so arrogant that their computer was more accurate than actual results. Most likely no one would be talking about Miami shootout 40 years later.

 

[stansdds]

Amazing how real world experience beats laboratory theory.

 

[Rock185]

I was never in a gunfight with it, but carried and shot the 9BPLE and Winchester 115 +P+ loads a fair amount in all manner of 9mm pistols, to include alloy framed S&Ws. To this point, I've detected no issues at all in using this ammo in my 9mms. As mentioned above, the Federal 115 JHP feeds reliably in about any pistol that will feed ball ammo.

I saw a gel test of the 9BP, XM9001 and 9BPLE; may have been Lucky Gunner. Expansion with the 9BP was minimal and iffy, better with the XM9001 and quite dynamic with the 9BPLE. Penetration of the 9BPLE may not be as great as the experts as the all knowing FBI require, but I have never felt ballistically naked while carrying it

BTW, While many now days seem to believe any high capacity 9mm pistol is a "Wonder 9", not so. The original wonder 9 was the S&W model 59, because it combined the the Hi Power type high capacity magazine with the P38 type DA for the first shot. This was quite something back around '70-'71. The early 59s did not have a good reputation for reliability, so I did not acquire one...