Bubba'd 1917 Marked .455.....British contract?

[Haybinger]

Hi all, a few years ago a friend of my grandfather decided to get out of handguns, among other things purchased was this odd S&W 1917. The story is that it was bought out of a surplus crate of Commonwealth surplus H-E's in the mid 60's and was converted for use in NRA Bullseye shooting. The gun came with some old targets, an old metal can of bullseye powder as well as a bunch of .45 Colt cases, a bunch of which were trimmed for use in the gun.

Ok so some 1917's I have seen converted to .45 Colt, this one is definitely not as they will not chamber unless trimmed. Well the frame is marked ".455 MKVI", although I have not fired any .455 Webley in this gun, the rims are so thin that one can see daylight between the rear of the brass and the face of the recoil shield if loaded. Sooo is it a .45 ACP/AR? And if so why the .455 proof on the barrel and frame stamp? It almost looks like the area around the recoil shield has been changed but I can't quite tell.

For markings, there is some sort of Eagle over "S2" stamped by the trigger guard on the left of the frame, rear of the cylinder, inside the yoke and on the barrel flat. There is a "M1" marking under the left grip near the butt of the frame. There is some kind of crown over squiggle marked between each chamber on the cylinder and a matching mark on the right of the frame. "S&W D.A. 45" on the left of the barrel and a British pressure proofing for .455 on the right. Some sort of Q with extra tails on the upper left of the frame. The left of the frame is also marked "455 MK IV". The butt is of course marked: "US ARMY MODEL 1917".

The serials on the butt, cylinder rear and barrel flat all match as SN 134,428. Assembly numbers matching on yoke and frame.

So what can the S&W forum tell me about this one? Caliber? War contract, commercial, something else? Thoughts on what to do with it? Leave it as a time capsule of the 60's sporterization or try to return it to original form? Apparent modifications appear to include: grips, widened trigger, massive front and rear sights installed, hair trigger action job, missing ejector rod spring.

And finally, the pictures:

 

[opoefc]

Leave it as is. The gun wa apparently a labor of love by the prior owner for match shooting. The S2 stamp is the Springfield Armory inspector's stamp as the gun was originally a Model 1917 made for the military contract with the US and then sent to the Brits who applied all their stampings & proof marks for their ownership and for .455 British ammo., etc. - then the gun came back to the US as surplus after WW2 and the owner picked it up cheap to alter it to his own desires. Rather than bore out the cylinders to shoot .45 Colt, he left it as is and used shorter cases to reload. Might be a good shooter , Ed

 

[ralph7]

Bet it shoots low.

 

[gmarshall99]

Starline brass makes 45 cowboy cartridges which are much shorter than full size 45 brass. Check it out.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That is SO neat!

 

[merl67]

Welcome to the forum. I have always hated the term Bubba'd, or the like used on guns like these. Yes we today like to find unaltered examples, but if we can for a moment remember back when these guns were surplus arms sold off cheap no one really looked at them as collectables. Someone took this gun, and made it what they wanted, or needed. I enjoy seeing these types of conversions. Some are done better than others, but most all show some ingenuity in the conversion. I have a Swedish Mauser that someone started on I am going to finish their work, I hope whomever started it would approve when I am done.

 

[steelslaver]

Interesting gun. Is that rear sight body held on by a screw though the body and top strap.

I don't quite get the 455 part, The cylinder was not shaved or the serial number would be gone. The cylinder to recoil shield gap looks wide like for acp with clips. You could cut down 45 colt brass and fire it in a 1917 45 acp by making it headspace on the case neck. But it almost looks like it was built up near top of recoil shield and a bit "odd" in that area.. Notice there also appears to be no firing pin bushing

All the 455 markings were added after it left the factory for sure. Did the British convert some 1917 to 455?? Anyone aware of others that were converted from 45 acp to 455

 

[Absalom]

The barrel marks are post-1955 London proofhouse. They are commercial proofs showing the gun was proofed for standard .455 ammunition.

I believe the .455 Mk VI on the frame, not applied by the proofhouse, refers to the ammo type. To my knowledge the .455 Mark VI Webley cartridge was introduced in 1939, a 265gr. and the first jacketed bullet.

PS: As to the bigger story, my guess would be this was one of the 1917s that went to Britain in 1940. After being surplused it was converted to a target gun in .455 in Britain, and so marked and proofed, sometime in the later 1950s. It came back to the US later as it is now.

 

[2152hq]

Is that a braze repair line on the bottom of the bbl ring in the frame (2nd to the last pic) or maybe just a marker of some kind.

The built up breach face to take up the extra wide headspace of the 45acp w/moon clips, so .455 could be fired in the gun., and proofed for that.
I'm wondering it after that, perhaps when the gun got to the USA, that someone didn't relieve the built up breach face a bit more to allow the use of 45Colt case (and their thicker rim) cut to .455 case length.

Interesting gun no matter.

To think these were $25 guns in plain issue form at one time.
But that $25 bought a lot at the grocery store too!

 

[Hondo44]

I agree.

None of the 20,000 1917s sent to the British for WWII were converted to .455 by their military. This looks like a "home brewed" .455 and target conversion by some English veteran so he could shoot it with ammo obtainable in England after the war.

The .45 ACP chambers will chamber all the .455 MKI, II, etc., ammo w/o modification to the cyl. The breechface was likely built up at that time for reliable ignition and it was apparently shot with MKVI ammo since that's been stamped on the left side of the frame. And also proofed with it for export out of England.

I believe once imported back into the USA, it had another amateur transformation to shoot the .45 Colt shortened cases that came with the gun. And the recoil shield was filed for headspace clearance. I do see a firing pin bushing by the way.

 

[steelslaver]

In other words it has had an interesting life and had some interesting work.

 

[Mk VII]

.45 Auto would not be a common caliber in England, few people used it.

 

[Haybinger]

Definitely some interesting thoughts here so far, I had believed that the barrel proofs were commercial post-war as well. I would like to note that the gun is not in the US, it is in Canada where there remained lots of surplus .455 until the 1970's, however it would seem the conversion was first done on England according to the proofmarks. I have shot this gun with the shortened .45 Colt cases, the gun has a real tendency to bind up and the cylinder fail to release, not sure if this is a symptom of the ejector rod unscrewing or the ammunition. Additionally there appears to be a not insignificant amount of slop between the rear of the case and the face of the recoil shield. Ditto for .455 ammo. Don't have any .45 ACP or moonclips to test with

 

[merl67]

If that gun were mine I would probably hand machine
(file) the breach face back to the proper height for 45acp w/moonclips/45 autorim, but I realize the OP being in Canada this may not make sense.