Bullet Alloy

[Drm50]

I just ran across some facts I didn’t know. The major ammo companies, pre WW2 used a mix of 20:1, lead to tin on their revolver bullets. I have been using same ratio for years with “experts” telling me I’m wasting tin.
This is for bullets for revolver cartridges that are under 1000fps.
I’ve not been overly concerned about lead. None is 100% pure but is close enough to call soft lead. To me uniformity is more important than splitting hairs on bullet alloy. Soft lead and tin are no problem, it’s hard lead like wheel weights that has become more of a problem.

 

[GypsmJim]

I used Lyman #2 for many years, till I ran out of the needed components (can't remember the formula offhand, but it also contained antimony).

Then I came into a free source of wheel weights so I converted over. Used WWs for many years until the local supplies ran out (the state converted to zinc). Then I bought a whole bunch off EBay when I could still get them for about $1.50 / lb.

Bottom line is that I use WWs for handguns up to 1000 fps and rifles with gas checks. Never had any leading. I found them to be completely satisfactory and quite consistent and use them for 27 out of the 28 calibers I reload for. I DO water quench out of the mold and that adds some hardness.

Current WWs online melted into ingots have risen sharply in price, but I would imagine that it would still be cheaper than tin.

 

[GypsmJim]

UPDATE

Did my R&D years ago, thus forgot most of it. This thread piqued my interest so I dug out my old books to review the data.

The caveat is that some current data is in conflict.

Here is a comparison of Brinell hardness data from my databases:

10:1 tin 11.5
20: 1 tin 10
30:1 tin 9
Lyman #2 15
Wheel weights 9-11-12 (variable)
Wheel weights (my WW data) water dropped 12

Thus, my conclusion is that 20/1 tin is not "wasting" tin, and maybe isn't enough.

At any rate, 30 years of straight WWs works for me...

 

[Engineer1911]

I have used 'mined bullets from the berm' for 30+ years without leading issues, 38 Spl to 45-70. Good lube solves many problems. Contrary to the Powder Coat Gang, original automatic transmission fluid is the golden oil to prevent leading. I add about 10% ATF TO the melted bees wax, candle wax, new toilet ring in the 1-quart pot.

EDIT: My dear son has gifted me with 375 pounds (15 bags) of #9 Magnum Shot and said, "Now you can cast more 9 MM bullets." Just what I need to go with 400 pounds of lead ingots.

 

[venomballistics]

I have used 'mined bullets from the berm' for 30+ years without leading issues, 38 Spl to 45-70. Good lube solves many problems. Contrary to the Powder Coat Gang, original automatic transmission fluid is the golden oil to prevent leading. I add about 10% ATF TO the melted bees wax, candle wax, new toilet ring in the 1-quart pot.

My first diy lube was a banana nut bread scented candle with Mobil one bearing grease.
Smelled wonderful, gave all my shooting buddies the munchies, and worked very well for the task at hand.
Still, today, Teflon powder coat is my go to for the refinements it brings.
But I can't deny the results of yesterday

 

[LoboGunLeather]

20-to-1 lead-tin ratio should be just fine for most handgun uses, modest velocities and pressures.

I spent many hours mining the police department indoor range, recovering swaged lead .38 slugs. Every service station and tire shop in town knew me from stopping in hoping to pick up old wheel weights. Once struck a bonanza at the site of an old building being demolished, picking up hundreds of lead window sashes. Old plumbing drain pipes were a lot of work in melting, fluxing, cleaning out all the accumulated residue, but I have done a few hundred pounds. Printing shops with linotype scrap were great sources (12% antimony, 4% tin, 84% lead was the standard mix), but photo-offset printing killed them off years ago.

50-50 bar solder (plumbers, metal fabricators) was a decent source for tin content before metals prices went crazy. Used to be readily available in building supply stores, but haven't even seen it in decades.

A metals foundry about 100 miles from my home was the source of a few hundred pounds of new linotype metal about 35 years ago. Still using that along with my remaining supplies of old wheel weights from the 1980s.

My usual production includes handgun bullets for most uses made of straight wheel weight metal, higher velocity handgun and modest velocity rifle (under 2000 FPS) uses 70% wheel weights and 30% linotype metal, high velocity rifle (over 2000 FPS) with 50-50 mix of wheel weights and linotype.

Interestingly, there are significant differences in as-cast diameters and weight depending on the alloys used. Softer metals display more shrinkage after casting and weigh more, while the harder alloys will display less shrinkage and weigh less.

Old school shop here, still using lubri-sizer press and dies with NRA Alox formula for everything. Never failed me so I see no reason to change after 50 years.

 

[Forrest r]

I don't understand the "less than 1000fps thing????". But I've been using 8/9bhn alloy for 99%+ of my shooting needs since the 1980's.

Most people use alloys that are way to hard. More leading of firearms have been caused by too hard of an alloy or the lack of lube/wrong lube than a soft alloy.

The 1st lyman alloy was 10 to 1 lead/tin (12bhn).

Lyman #2 (2nd alloy) is 90% lead 5% tin 5% antimony.

Lead/tin alloy's are fantastic to use. Your 20 to 1 alloy (10bhn) has elasticity along with excellent mailability. A link to a 1953 article where they tested different lead/tin alloys using cast hp bullets with different alloys/velocities.
https://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44 spl - may 1953 american rifleman.pdf

A side note:
It's not the velocity of a cast bullet/alloy that matters. It's the pressure of the load that counts.

 

[243winxb]

Current Standard- 2%-Tin,6%-Antimony,and 92%-Lead

The Basis for Compositional Bullet Lead Comparisons
Charles A. Peters
Forensic Physical Scientist
Materials Analysis Unit
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Washington, DC
Bullet leads analyzed from CCI, Federal, Remington, and Winchester have contained up to 0.42 percent arsenic, 6.8 percent antimony, 2.5 percent tin, 0.2 percent bismuth, 0.22 percent copper, 0.031 percent silver, and 0.011 percent cadmium

 

[243winxb]

Cast Bullet Alloys

Plastic deformation-This whole relationship centers around the elastic limit for the alloy you are using and what the elastic limit is. the elastic limit is the point at which stresses can occur to an object and it will return to it's relative shape. Once you have reached the deformation stage it no longer returns to relative shape. this is a very simplified version of this topic as it pertains to engineering mechanics of materials.
This is meant to be a guide and to keep you within safe/acceptable limits for pressure and alloy for your purposes. Obturated bullets do not mean that the shape has went through plastic deformation, just that it has expanded and stayed within the elastic limits of the alloy.
The formula does not take into account other factors that aide in reducing friction and thus combined forces on the cast slug. As stated above, one member is getting very good accuracy with soft (by most peoples standards) alloys in high velocity loads (for cast anyway).
Another factor not talked aobut is the pressure curve of the powder/cartridge combination. Does it spike quickly (fast pistol powder in rifle size case) or is it a gradual increase (full case of slower powder). Protection of the bullet base can also be a factor, we routinely do this by gas-checking, using lube wads, or fillers.

"PLASTICITY" describes the deformation of a material undergoing non-reversible changes of shape in response to applied forces. Obturate means to block or obstruct.

 

[Drm50]

I have used 'mined bullets from the berm' for 30+ years without leading issues, 38 Spl to 45-70. Good lube solves many problems. Contrary to the Powder Coat Gang, original automatic transmission fluid is the golden oil to prevent leading. I add about 10% ATF TO the melted bees wax, candle wax, new toilet ring in the 1-quart pot.

EDIT: My dear son has gifted me with 375 pounds (15 bags) of #9 Magnum Shot and said, "Now you can cast more 9 MM bullets." Just what I need to go with 400 pounds of lead ingots.

I wouldn’t melt down shot for bullets. If you think lead is expensive check out the price of a bag of shot. I would be looking for a trade. I live in area that had several big tin plate operations and have a lot of tin from 5lb ingots to slices off big ingots that go 30-40lbs. Also being in fishing tackle business many customers worked in the mills and over the years gifted me Lead, tin and ingots of various bearing metals. I have never added anything except tin.
Since my bullet production is for revolvers and LV rifle cartridges I save the factory lead ingots for the 20:1 mix. That way I know what I got and not hard to reproduce uniformity.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm speaking strictly of conventionally sized and lubed bullets here. Whether for rifle or handgun cartridges, the softest alloy for the load that does not lead the bore will usually be the most accurate. Of course, bullet fit must be right. It takes some experimentation certainly, but the time expended is worth the effort.

 

[Skeet 028]

I was also gifted a ton of shot 10 years ago. All large sized that can no longer be used for waterfowl. The 4s 5s 6s were all used to make 8 and, 8 1/2 shot. The hardness of the shot is pretty much determined by the antimony and those in mag shot all have 4 to 6 percent roughly. so it worked well for my shot for skeet. BBs and 2s have less antimony(approx 3%) so I used it for bullet making adding tin too. It made great bullets for handgun shooting. I tried small lots of lead/tin mix from 8 to 1 to 20 to 1 for the most part 18 to 1 and 20 to 1 made the "best" bullets for my shooting. BTW lead free solder is mostly made of tin and can be found regularly at yard sales. I bought 20 pounds from a plumber who changed to mostly plastic.... buck a pound

 

[Neumann]

Tin and lead form an eutectic mixture, which has a lower melting point than either metal alone. Too much tin makes an harder alloy, but tends to cause leading due to friction melting.

Wheel weights contain antimony, which makes the alloy harder yet, but further lowers the melting point.

In either case, tin and antimony oxidize easily, forming a skin on top of the melt. You must flux the melt in order to reduce the oxides and return them to the metal.

This makes little difference for low velocity target shooting (<800 fps), but for high performance, it's best to leave the metallurgy to experts. I use hard cast bullets from Oregon Trails in in pistols and rifles, up to 1900 fps without leading. Plus, I'm not breathing lead fumes.

 

[Drm50]

I been casting long enough that I can tell if alloy is hard enough to use in magnum revolver loads just by tone of it dropped on concrete. Straight wheel weight will handle most hot loads. Average loads 50:50 WWs and lead with 20:1 tin. I haven’t done much in rifle loads other than LV cartridges. It takes a modicum of smarts but it’s not space science.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have used 'mined bullets from the berm' for 30+ years without leading issues, 38 Spl to 45-70. Good lube solves many problems. Contrary to the Powder Coat Gang, original automatic transmission fluid is the golden oil to prevent leading. I add about 10% ATF TO the melted bees wax, candle wax, new toilet ring in the 1-quart pot.

EDIT: My dear son has gifted me with 375 pounds (15 bags) of #9 Magnum Shot and said, "Now you can cast more 9 MM bullets." Just what I need to go with 400 pounds of lead ingots.

How do you apply it to the bullets?