Caliber Wars Rage On: .38 Spl vs. 9mm

[bubbajoe45]

I know, I know, it's exhausting. I don't have any personal issues with making up my mind between the 9mm, .40, and .45 (bigger is better for me), however I do sometimes take a minute to think about where I'm going and/or what I'm doing when it comes to .44 Spl vs. .45 ACP. In terms of the old 9mm vs .45 controversy, I've solved it by just carrying both (Ha).

I've recently acquired a PM9 (my first 9) and have been using it some in a pocket holster instead of my 442 (as a BUG). Also, using it exclusively for 'deep concealment' when that's necessary. I have always carried 158 gr +P LSWCHP in my .38s, as per Mr. Ayoob's recommendations and research. I haven't yet bought any +Ps for the 9 but have put 300 rounds of assorted ball and HP 124 and 147 gr Rem, BVAC, and Fiochhi through the Kahr (mostly HP). OK, so I get a few more rounds with the 9, it weighs alittle more, both are accurate (but require more attention to detail than a larger gun), and the flatter 9 is alittle more comfortable after 12-14 hrs. I guess the ballistics are a little hotter with 9, given +Ps in both. I've been thinking that for deep conclmnt I could just put one in each pocket, but which would be the primary and which the secondary? So is the 9mm really any better than a .38 Spl?

 

[bubbajoe45]

Oh, yea forgot to mention; I did search for this because I can't imagine it hasn't already been beat to death, but I didn't come up with anything.

 

[gunner]

When fired through my PM9 9mm 100 grain Corbon PrB's experience jacket/core separtion and penetrate 1 1/2 three inch thick wet phonebooks. The .38 100 grain when fired through a 3 inch S&W M66 has significant deformation but not separtion and penetrate about the same. I like the 9mm

 

[bubbajoe45]

After reading some gun magazine chronograph tables, I remember thinking that the 9mm was significantly handicapped when fired through compact pistols when compared to the results from 4 and 5 inch barrels. I wonder if the velocity losses in the compact guns are enough to impair expansion.

In this case, of course, both are short barreled.

Here is a link to a post on another forum that gives results for a variety of 9mm loads through a PM9.

Interesting, thanks. I was going to search for that type data. Bought some +P gold dots today.

Have you been following the discussion on this thread?

Yes, that's what prompted me to post this thread.

I think that you should carry the compact gun that you shoot better - and if it's the 442, stick with the J-frame. If you shoot the PM9 better, carry it.

I should take 'em both to the range and try a few drills with each and see which one wins. I honestly don't shoot my J frame often enough (about twice a year). thanks for the reply.

 

[Pointman_FL]

While I have the Speer Gold Dot 135 grainers in my 642 and 638, as my primary trainer Randy Cain says, "There is no silver bullet."

While this most often comes up in the .45ACP vs. 40S&W vs. 9mm Luger discussion, it's just as applicable here. Neither a J frame nor a micro 9mm will produce the ideal combination of bullet expansion and adequate penetration.

But in the end, it's where we place the bullet (and how many we place) that has a greater deciding role in stopping the fight.

My daily carry gun is a custom Colt Government Model in .45ACP. But I wouldn't feel defenseless if somehow the only pistol on the planet was a 9mm Glock 19, because while the hardware matters, the software (training, mindset, shot placement) matters more.

 

[flop-shank]

Pointman, the best modern .38+P ammo is so well engineered that it ought to expand the right amount to offer the proper amount of penetration to the extent that other major calibers do. I'm sure properly selected loads from a compact 9mm will too.

You're snubby gun/ammo setup sounds like a winner.

 

[WR Moore]

The one advantage 9mm used to have over the .38 was that the 9mm had a very narrow velocity range. This allowed bullet design to be optimized for that range. Since the .357 and .38 share a bore diameter, the manufacturers had to either make bullets that didn't expand at 800 fps or that exploded at 1300 fps. They generally built their bullets for the .357 and the .38 performance suffered accordingly.

Now, some of the manufacturers seems to have developed bullets exclusively for the .38 and in some cases short barrel .38's .

Some of the micro pistols have issues with +P/+P+, it upsets their timing and ability to pick up rounds from the magazine. Should you choose to go this direction, do a lot of testing. Not being familiar with the Kahrs, I'm not sure what the frame rails are made of. I'd be a wee bit leary of a steady diet of hot loads on plastic frame rails.

 

[David Sinko]

I suspect what you're hinting at is 9mm Pocket Auto vs. .38 Special Pocket Revolver. In this case you'll have to choose whatever works best for you since they will have roughly the same stopping power out of the short barrels. I strongly dislike autos for defensive use so my choice is the 9mm Pocket Revolver.

Dave Sinko

 

[Pointman_FL]

... the best modern .38+P ammo is so well engineered that it ought to expand the right amount to offer the proper amount of penetration to the extent that other major calibers do....

Flop - Agree with the theory (it's why I have the Gold Dots in my J frames), but choose not to leave the [many] variables of application to chance. That's why I carry a five inch steel 1911 in .45ACP (containing Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain JHPs in standard pressure loading). I only carry my J-frames as BUGs or when I can't conceal anything larger (which happens now and then here in Florida).

As some wag once said, a 9mm might expand and get bigger, but a .45 won't contract and get smaller.

Thanks for the comment, and stay safe.

 

[flop-shank]

You're most welcome and you're doing the .45 thing right by using a 5" barrel.

 

[OKFC05]

I guess the ballistics are a little hotter with 9

Having a chronograph and using it with YOUR guns will surely warp your mind.
Takes all the fun out of reading published ballistics data out of who-knows-what barrel and making all those theoretical calculations about "best."
Gun-to-gun variations are often more than the theoretical "advantage" from one caliber to the next.

 

[ENGINE18]

J or K-frame snub; usually the J. (I'm old school) But I keep thinking I need another 9mm!

 

[reerc]

... now where is that "yawn" emoticon? ...