Call me crazy.....

SAFireman

SAFireman

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.....but I am considering running some 38/44 loads through some of my 'older' J frames....one is even an alloy Model 38.

I have been working on loads for the 38/44 HD that I have recently acquired. My dear old dad convinced me to finally break out the chronograph that he gave me (seems like a long time ago now...)

I am currently up to just under 1100 fps with 158gr LSWCHP's. I am about to run into 'THE LOAD' territory of 12-1300 FPS range with the 158 grain LSWC and I was tossing around the idea of running some through a 1955-56 vintage model 36, an early model 38, and of course, some of my more modern J frame favorites.

Now, I am really comfortable with my Scandium 340 and the Federal 357 Mag 125gr Hydra-Shok rounds (they sting a bit)....I am no stranger to little guns and big recoil, so that is not an issue....

I won't be running 100's of these rounds through these old J frames, but just enough to get familiar with them (as I may be transitioning to 'THE LOAD' for SD purposes).

What do the experts (you guys ;) think?

[] Flame suit ON [/]

Lemme have it guys ;)
 
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All kidding aside,It sounds like it would be OK in the more modern J Frames.I would not shoot them in a vintage model 38,You have a VERY good chance of cracking the frame under the Barrel.The older all steel J frames may still be OK.
 
Personally I'd be comfortable running hotter then usual loads through an older all steel J-Frame, but I'd be pretty wary of doing it with an old airweight.

I carry a model 60 from 1984, it doesn't say it's rated for +p on it, but I run Speer Gold Dot +P through it as my defense round without even the slightest issue.

In the end though, I'd have to ask, what is the point? Even if it does work without a hitch do you have any real reason other then 'just because' to do this?
 
I too hope you tape it. I need a good laugh!:D But seriously those guns should handle it, can the shooter?:eek:
 
SixgunStrumpet said:
Personally I'd be comfortable running hotter then usual loads through an older all steel J-Frame, but I'd be pretty wary of doing it with an old airweight.

I carry a model 60 from 1984, it doesn't say it's rated for +p on it, but I run Speer Gold Dot +P through it as my defense round without even the slightest issue.

In the end though, I'd have to ask, what is the point? Even if it does work without a hitch do you have any real reason other then 'just because' to do this?
Click to expand...

Strumpet,

I am having a dickens of a time finding 'suitable' Self-defense loads locally, and online they are over-priced (IMHO).

I can load them myself, they are proven (FBI/Chicago/Dallas load?) and the home grown version wont cost me $1 each or more.
 
You are already at or near the original .38/44 factory ballistics. The 1930s ammunition catalogs show the .38/44 158 grain lead bullet load MV as being 1115 ft/sec in a 5" barrel. Obviously you can increase that a bit, and the earlier Lyman loading manuals show loads having MVs in the 1200-1250 ft/sec range (they all use only Hercules 2400 as the propellant) in heavy frame revolvers. But I wouldn't go there (or anywhere near it) in any J-frame, new or old. Pain and control-ability would be bad, apart from the real possibility of revolver damage with a lightweight frame. You don't want to hear my honest opinion of your plan.
 
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SAFireman said:
Strumpet,

I am having a dickens of a time finding 'suitable' Self-defense loads locally, and online they are over-priced (IMHO).

I can load them myself, they are proven (FBI/Chicago/Dallas load?) and the home grown version wont cost me $1 each or more.
Click to expand...

I typed this out, realized it's long, and a can of worms probably, and maybe doesn't belong on this particular portion of the website. If you hold the mistaken idea that .410 shells are great for self defense please read no further.



The load itself is pretty simple, but the bullet is what matters. If you want as good a self defense load as you can have for .38 special you want one of the new hollow points that hit, expand, and stay in one piece until they stop.

The idea I subscribe to is that you can only really stop someone by doing enough major organ damage or nervous system damage, so you want as large a wound channel as possible as far through the body as possible. Over-penetration is not a problem when it comes to stopping someone.

Thing about defensive carry is that it's not about killing someone, it's about stopping them. In the old days .45LC and it's duplicate as far as ballistics are concerned the .45ACP accomplish just that. Big wound channel through someone. It stops them.

Since .358 isn't anywhere near as big as .45 we can compensate for that by having a hollow point, but if that bullet doesn't stay in one piece you may do some nasty damage to a person which could eventually kill them, but you are less likely to stop them.

People have all sorts of ideas about hydrostatic shock and "blended metal" loads that cause huge wound cavities. Silly "self defense" .410 rounds to shoot out of a pistol that throw all sorts of random bits of metal? It's all just snake oil. Stopping a person is just grade school physics, no matter what anyone tries to sell you.

For your defense loads I'd look at the speer gold dot bullets, hornady critical defense I think they are called, and winchester makes one, I think they use it in their ranger rounds? Not certain, speer gold dot seems to do what I need it to do and I trust them.
 
The old axiom is that proper bullet placement trumps everything else. I believe the majority of the wonder bullets are mainly smoke and mirrors. Like fishing lures are really for catching fisherman, wonder bullets are mainly for catching shooters who believe the hype.
 
I think 1125-1140 matches the original factory 38/44 load but no way of knowing how much pressure they generated compared to your load. I would not go beyond this.

As for 38/44 ammo in an alloy Chief's Special, it's been done. Elmer Keith wrote in 1955 of shooting 38/44s in such a gun. The gun did fine but Keith reported the recoil was severe. That is significant coming from a man who thought nothing of shooting full 44 Magnums in a 4" 29 with Magna stocks.
 
SAFireman said:
I am about to run into 'THE LOAD' territory of 12-1300 FPS range with the 158 grain LSWC...
Click to expand...

I probably missed the memo on this one but could you (OP) explain what 'THE LOAD' is?

Your stated 12-1300 fps range has no relation or connection to the original 38/44 loads intended for the HD and Outdoorsman. As other have already said that ammunition produced velocities in the 1125-1150 fps range depending on barrel length (from 4" to 6.5").

I'm not even going to comment on the idea of even these (wimpy to you) 38/44 rounds in a J-frame. Having trained both cops and civilians for many years I don't believe anyone, no matter their muscles or tattoos, can really control one of those 5-shots with ammunition like this in rapid follow-up shots. And that kind of defensive pistol craft would be the whole point.

YMMV,
Dave
 
Crazy probably not but I can guarantee these will be no fun shooting in a light weight snub nose revolver. I have a a model 37 rated for plus p and having shot a few in it the muzzle blast and recoil isn't worth the very small gain in power. I had much rather shoot full power loads in my 4 inch model 29.
 
I think the real danger here is giving the impression to new reloaders that this sort of experimenting is normal and safe. It's not. It crazy.
 
In a past life my brother had a 4 in. Police Positive and we were sitting on the back steps shooting 12 grs. of 2400 and 158 gr. SWCs. They kicked like Simon Slick. An old friend of the family came over and proceeded to tell us how good she was with a pistol and how much she knew and if we would let her shoot she would show us. One shot and she went out of the pistol shooting business. For me that load is too much for a M36. Larry
 
Think ahead, beyond your firing tests and try to imagine how you
would feel while looking at your old nice J frame now ruined with a
cracked frame. Picture yourself in your mind's eye calling yourself
stupid over and over. If you don't like the picture don't run the risk
of the consequences.
 
I'm a big fan of the .38-44 and really enjoy shooting my HDs. However, shooting that round in my 4" M13 w/target stocks is just tolerable and feels about the same as a full-bore .357. I will side with the others above and discourage you from using it in a j-frame, especially a classic.

JMHO
Larry
 
Dave T said:
I probably missed the memo on this one but could you (OP) explain what 'THE LOAD' is?

Your stated 12-1300 fps range has no relation or connection to the original 38/44 loads intended for the HD and Outdoorsman. As other have already said that ammunition produced velocities in the 1125-1150 fps range depending on barrel length (from 4" to 6.5").

I'm not even going to comment on the idea of even these (wimpy to you) 38/44 rounds in a J-frame. Having trained both cops and civilians for many years I don't believe anyone, no matter their muscles or tattoos, can really control one of those 5-shots with ammunition like this in rapid follow-up shots. And that kind of defensive pistol craft would be the whole point.

YMMV,
Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

'THE LOAD' was published in Speer #8. It is still somewhat controversial, and threads that detailed it have been mostly removed from this site, so I won't detail the specifics. It involved the soon to be discontinued SR4756 pushing a 158gr LSWC (LSWHP) to above 1200fps.

I am not muscled or tattooed, and I don't plan on dumping rapid rounds out of a 5 shot J frame. I just want good solid hits one at a time. I will be making up loads for my 38/44's and I really want a safe self defense round that will cover multiple platforms (and not destroy my classic J frames in the process).

I am still learning about the 38/44 loads and experimenting with some of my own. The original 38/44 loadings and 'THE LOAD' are not too far apart and I am just trying to find a workable, safe, reliable, and stout load for my own use....since buying SD ammo is an ever more expensive and frustrating venture.

I am not Kieth, and I don't want to push the extreme limitations of my guns, I just want a good load that works across my platforms. And yes, I would be upset if I ruined a fine antique revolver (so far all my testing is out of my 640-1 - just to get the chrono data at this time). I have not put any of my home brew through my 36 or 38 at this time. I surely don't want any kabooms or broken frames on my watch - or in my hands.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.
 
You are concerned with FPS and bullet weight.

I have to agree with Saxon that pressure (c.u.p.) is what you should be concerned with. Nobody else mentioned the generated pressure except him; and my intention to do so. Metals were not so advanced back then. You pick up an old gun, it's all steel, and you think "this feels really solid" but the metalurgy was not as advanced in the old days and you could ruin these old guns by using higher pressure loads than they were made to shoot. They may not explode but at the very least you will stretch the frames and may damage the lockworks. The aluminum alloy frame will be the most at risk.

And bullet design, as sixgunstrumpet mentioned, is also key. The reason the .38 Special fell into disfavor was the old round nose lead bullet design, not the power factors.

Shot placement is still paramount.

I think you will regret this decision if you load 38/44 in your snubs. You are risking your guns and worst, your personal safety. A modern 38 Special load is quite sufficient for self defense.
I am sure you have bigger firearms to satisfy your urge to have a "magic bullet".

Chose from your many guns, depending on where you are going to be that day, and what tactics and clothing (seasonal) you will be wearing.
 
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Aside from the questionable safety of "hot" loads in older small-frame guns, I personally don't think one should ever choose SD ammo because it is "cheaper" - whether reloads or not.

I have also heard it said, and can see the logic, that if you are ever involved in a shooting, the prosecutor may paint you as a villain sitting in your basement crafting super-deadly custom evil ammunition intended to do the maximum damage and cause maximum pain to whatever poor dirtbag you dispatched.

My daily carry on the farm is a BHP with FMJs...simply because I end up shooting a lot of critters (armadillos, 'possums, groundhogs, moles, horseflies, etc) and this is a "cost" consideration. When I go to town I take a Glock 26 and a couple of magazines of Winchester Ranger Talons (so-called LE ammo).

To me, anyway, if you're likely to be shooting a pocket or carry gun quite a bit at non-human targets, ammo cost may matter. In a potential legal mess over shooting a human, I am willing to spend a few bucks on ammo that will perform reliably and possibly help me if I'm ever testifying in my own defense during a civil suit. "I was just using what the police use."
 
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It is unlikely that one will find a load for a .38 snubby that works enough better than a standard target wadcutter, with SWC to reload, that is worth the hassle.
 
Have you tried the Speer 140gr JHP bullet yet?

I ask this because in my 6" python I could make pin point accurate shots at the 100yd berm at the smallest rocks that I could see. This 140gr bullet seem to be the sweet spot for the 357mag using 2400 powder.

Now I wonder how the s&w would do with this load. I was shooting off hand aiming dead on the target. For some reason the python always shot high @ 25yds. I got upset finally and took it out to 100yds. I'm thinking that's why the PO traded it in. I had rifle accuracy with a revolver @ 100yds. I know it's no biggie today but back in 1980 it was.

I been tempted to down load the magnum powder charge to a 38special load with the 140gr JHP bullet too. So I could try this setup in a 38 special.
 
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Fireman,
Why don't you play it safe and use one of your Mod 58s with a 220 gr. bullet at about 900 or 1,000 FPS? I bet it would handle the situation better and hurt your hand less! You talked me into buying one so I know what they can do!
Dick
 

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"I have also heard it said, and can see the logic, that if you are ever involved in a shooting, the prosecutor may paint you as a villain sitting in your basement crafting super-deadly custom evil ammunition intended to do the maximum damage and cause maximum pain to whatever poor dirtbag you dispatched. "

This is probably a myth. I have read several articles in the same vein that no legal records of such a prosecution occurring exist. However there was one case some years ago, I think in Colorado, involving a camper or hiker who got into an altercation with a local BG, and ended up shooting and killing him with some type of semiauto in .40 S&W. The prosecutor actually convicted him of murder by use of excessive force simply because of the caliber (.40 S&W) he used (it had nothing to do with handloads). I believe the conviction was later overturned and it led to a change in the state law the prosecutor used. There is a similar possible myth about people being convicted of murder in a self-defense situation by shooting the BG multiple times. I guess the idea is you are supposed to fire only one shot in order to not show your bloodthirsty, inhumane, and cruel intent. I don't believe there is a basis for that story either.
 
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Factory +p

Thanks for all of the comments gentlemen.

I am going to continue working on my 38/44 loads, but they are going to stay in the Heavy Duties.

I will likely be hunting up a couple of boxes of the FBI load to run in my model 36 and 38. There is no up side to trying to make the 38 Special into a 357 magnum lite.

I will continue to carry and enjoy my older J frames because I enjoy their history. If I feel the desire to carry a 357, well then I will bring out the 340 or 640-1.

Thanks for entertaining my ideas.....I may make a youtube video, just not with atomic 38 loads :D

And Reddog - I do really enjoy my 58's. I am toying with sending one off to have the barrel chopped. I don't think that it will fit in my pocket even then, but I am sure that I can find some way to enjoy it anyhow.
 
SAFireman said:
Thanks for all of the comments gentlemen.

I am going to continue working on my 38/44 loads, but they are going to stay in the Heavy Duties.

I will likely be hunting up a couple of boxes of the FBI load to run in my model 36 and 38. There is no up side to trying to make the 38 Special into a 357 magnum lite.

I will continue to carry and enjoy my older J frames because I enjoy their history. If I feel the desire to carry a 357, well then I will bring out the 340 or 640-1.

Thanks for entertaining my ideas.....I may make a youtube video, just not with atomic 38 loads :D

And Reddog - I do really enjoy my 58's. I am toying with sending one off to have the barrel chopped. I don't think that it will fit in my pocket even then, but I am sure that I can find some way to enjoy it anyhow.
Click to expand...

Atta boy!
Smart decision ;)
 
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