Came Full Circle: Return to the 4506

[Leiden]

I'm a homicide detective with one of the largest Sheriff's Offices in the Southwest. I carried the 4506 and 4516 for years...that is until I was sent to another unit awhile ago that used 1911s. In the time since I put my 4506 away and picked up the 1911 I've carried issued Kimbers, Colts and even privately purchased Nighthawks (I am partial to the hard chromed 4.25" Nighthawks). However, when we went to execute a warrant where we absolutely knew we'd be walking into trouble I put the 1911 aside and put back on the 4506...something about that pistol still amazes me. So, along with a 14" Remington 870, the 4506 and I did what we needed to and everything worked out.

When I put the 4506 on my leg (we wear Safariland 6004s below heavy Paraclete armor) the younger detectives didn't know what it was, while the older detectives just smiled and commented they wished they hadn't sold theirs off years ago.

Yes, the 4506 still has a place in law enforcement. It isn't as sexy as the $3300 Nighthawk, but, for good or bad, when I absolutely knew it wasn't going to be a good day I chose to carry it. I think that sort of says I need to carry it everyday...not like we can choose what we walk into.

 

[18DAI]

Good on you Leiden!!

You are right. We can't choose what we walk into, but we can choose what we walk in with. You chose wisely. Stay safe! Best regards, 18DAI

 

[icemn]

Leiden, I'm glad your day worked out ok. I'm not in law enforcement, so I can only imagine what you were facing. That said, when I feel the need to have the maximum level of comfort on my hip, its a 45 and in combination with 3rd gen, its hard to beat. The 4506 will get it done. Your point is well taken about carrying the best protection everyday.

Be safe!

 

[69HEMI-R/T]

Well done sir, the S&W 4506 is a fantastic choice for walking into known trouble and I am glad things worked out.

I do love my 1911's (All Colts) but a 4506 is hard to put back for a 1911 and the 4506 would probably be MY choice also. congrats.

 

[Ethang]

There is just something special about that big old hunk of steel. If ever our regulations change the plastic will go back in the safe post haste.

 

[SMSgt]

I've got a 4566 and it's a pure joy to shoot. The 45XXs are .45s done right!

 

[4506517]

According to some "knowledgeable" folks on this forum, what you just described is utterly impossible based on solely "economic" reasoning. The only solution is to immediately trade your 4506 for an M & P in a different caliber.....

Now on a serious note, as someone who has carried a 4566 into one of those same type of places, I agree with you whole heartedly. I unfortunately have to carry the M & P daily and just don't trust it.

Funny thing.....ever notice that folks bashing the 3rd gennies and praising the M & P usually haven't carried either on duty or into harm's way. Kinda odd isn't it? Makes you wonder.......

 

[rwsmith]

If anybody can bring back......

If anybody can bring back an out-of-production pistol, it is law enforcement. If LE departments were to say, 'Heck with plastic, we want our steel back" and adopt something similar, the public will beat a path to the door to get what LE has got.

Similar reactions would be if the FBI or military adopted a steel pistol and threw away the plastic.

 

[Leiden]

I don't think the 3rd Gens are coming back. There are over 3500 of us and I'm, to the best of my knowledge, the last sworn using a S&W 3rd Gen. When my 4516-1 needed new recoil springs, and we didn't yet know about Wolff, I spoke to the Smith & Wesson and they offered to send me a coupon for a discount on the M&P.

To be honest, as a firearms instructor, I'm not convinced our guys can be trusted to always remember to take the safety off. We have a devoted 1911 following and I help teach a course for that weapon system, but the Glock seems to be the way we are going.

I will say the reasons I like the 4506 area as follows:

1. It always works and never malfunctions - my 4506 will feed empty cases just like the rest of them
2. Eight rounds is enough for me and I haven't been known to miss.
3. The magazine is longer than a 1911s and is very well designed. I don't need to worry about buying new magazines as what comes from the factory may not work.
4. The stainless finish shows up well at night. This may not be important for non-LEO work, but I know the suspect knows I'm serious when I point the 4506 in his face and politely request he drop his weapon.
5. My pistol holds a 2" circle at 25 yards with duty ammo.
6. I like DA/SA and like the safety. I follow the age old rule of keeping the finger off the trigger until on target and ready to fire, but after jumping fences and getting pissed off that I have to run, I like the heavy DA pull...just in case.
7. I like being able to remove the magazine and know it won't fire. I've never had it happen to me, but my FTO years ago got into a pretty good fight on the ground and popped the mag out on his 4006. He used his PR24 to finish the job, but he felt better knowing his pistol couldn't be used against him. There are some issues with this, but it does bring up a point.
8. I think the 4506 is the right size for a man. It fits the hand well and isn't too small. I like feeling it on my him and knowing I can beat someone with it if I have to.
9. Not everyone has one. I work in an agency where everyone looks the same, carries pretty much the same weapon and I just like to be different...to a point. The 4506 in a Kramer holster, two spare magazines, handcuffs and a 649 in a Kramer ankle holster is sort of along my taste. Glock 22s are nice, but they have no personality.

So, after these reasons I've given, I'm pretty sure I won't be wearing a 1911 to work tomorrow like I am supposed to. Next to the 4506, I have to say the 14" Remington 870 with a +1 extender and wood stocks is just about as functional a tool as can be found.

If anybody can bring back an out-of-production pistol, it is law enforcement. If LE departments were to say, 'Heck with plastic, we want our steel back" and adopt something similar, the public will beat a path to the door to get what LE has got.

Similar reactions would be if the FBI or military adopted a steel pistol and threw away the plastic.

 

[Ethang]

...... I unfortunately have to carry the M & P daily and just don't trust it.

Funny thing.....ever notice that folks bashing the 3rd gennies and praising the M & P usually haven't carried either on duty or into harm's way. Kinda odd isn't it? Makes you wonder.......

I am in the same boat but don't have any other options that are in policy. I missed being grandfathered in with the 3rd Gen Smiths by two years.

 

[Arik]

According to some "knowledgeable" folks on this forum, what you just described is utterly impossible based on solely "economic" reasoning. The only solution is to immediately trade your 4506 for an M & P in a different caliber.....

Now on a serious note, as someone who has carried a 4566 into one of those same type of places, I agree with you whole heartedly. I unfortunately have to carry the M & P daily and just don't trust it.

Funny thing.....ever notice that folks bashing the 3rd gennies and praising the M & P usually haven't carried either on duty or into harm's way. Kinda odd isn't it? Makes you wonder.......

Has your MP ever let you down? I just dont get the 'trust' issues when it comes to 'feel'. There have been so many bad guns made that 'feel' good cause theyre steel. I own both the MP45 and the 4506. The 4506 is to new to me to say i trust it, i only bought it on Saturday. But the MP....man oh man what a great gun. Reliable, dependable, accurate, just a great 45


OP, why carry a 1911 if you dont trust it? Especially in your line of work when anything can happen at any second. In this case you knew you were gonna execute a search warrant but something just as dangerous can happen at a car stop or a suspect interview
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[Leiden]

I see your point, but the problem LEOs have is we are issued certain pistols and are supposed to use them. In my agency, depending on where you work, the issue pistols are 1911s for SWAT, Glock .357 SIGs for Narcotics, and other groups have theirs as well. I carried, and will have to carry, a 1911 as it is what the unit carries. I like my Nighthawk and trust it completely, but the point is, when I chose to exercise my discretion and be different, I chose to carry a 4506. Should I have carried the 4506 every day instead of the 1911 I was supposed to....yes, I agree with you on that.

Many times agencies make decisions based on economics, and from what I can tell, on what the command staff sees on television. If they see LAPD SWAT carrying Kimber 1911s, then you can bet we will have them too. I still think the reason we changed from black to green SWAT uniforms is due to television. I'm just waiting for Multicam to come about after seeing it on the television.

In the end, you need to carry what you have faith in and what you can hit with...

I'm a factory armorer for the S&W M&P. I agree with you in they are great guns. I think its just age and experience telling me there are other choices out there I just happen to like better. This same age and experience, plus my experiences in Homicide, have taught me to prefer the 12 gauge shotgun for entry work. Lots of guys prefer the M4s with lots of magazines, but I still carry the 14" Remington with buck, slug and Avon rounds.

I predict you will love your 4506 and I further predict your M&P will be admired and esteemed, but not cherished like your 4506.

[/QUOTE]
OP, why carry a 1911 if you dont trust it? Especially in your line of work when anything can happen at any second. In this case you knew you were gonna execute a search warrant but something just as dangerous can happen at a car stop or a suspect interview
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2[/QUOTE]

 

[gtoppcop]

Leiden,

I agree whole-heartedly with you. The 4506 (and the 4566, along with the 645) are serious machines meant for a lifetime of hard-use.

When I was on the job in metro Denver, I was authorized to carry my Les Baer TR Special (now the wifey's). I liked it very much.

Now, I would be a little hesitant to carry a 1911. I like them very much, but truly feel the S&W 45XX-series, especially in the 4-1/4" and 5" versions are th best L.E. pistol.

All of my 45XX-series 3rd Gens have the wider Ed Brown #850 safety, so I can't possibly miss the de-activation of the safety. I always have them on safe and practice on/off-safe.

After my career in the Corps is up, I hope to go back into L.E. work. The 3/ea 4566s, custom 645 and my new-to-me mint- condition 1989-vintage 4506 (with STG and Adjustable Sights) will be at my side in a Bianchi #3000/#6100 Auto Draw holster.

All of my 45XX-series guns have the stock S&W straight grips stippled by ROBAR for the 'Stick like Gorilla Snot' grip. All of them are exceedingly accurate and will also feed empties. Heck, they even double as impact weapons!

Many of my fellow Marines that plan a follow-on career in L.E. have been briefed about the efficacy of the 59XX, 40XX and 45XX-series pistols. Many of them are awe struck when they see the 4506 'Dragoon'. Many of them like the 4566TSWs that my LGS came into. One of my MSgts bought a like-new 4566TSW (w/ rail) for $500 OTD.

I hear that many LAPD cops are starting to come back to the 45XX-series pistols. 18DAI said that 3rd Award Experts may now be authorized the 1911 on duty.

When I was working (between stints in the Corps) in metro Denver, many a felon would size me up. The leather jacket, spit-shined boots and leather, with the cocked and locked 1911 would tell a story. I truly feel that the large 45XX-series S&W also says something about the gentleman wearing it...

I'm glad my gunsmith turned me onto the 3rd Gens. I like the 1911 (and the SIG P225, P226 and P220), but for my peace of mind the inherent reliability, durability and safety of the 45XX-series guns is the game changer. Many a cop has been saved by the safety features of the guns.

Just my $.02

 

[4506517]

Has my M & P ever let me down? Without hi jacking the OP's thread, I can tell you based on practical experience I do not trust it. Do a search and you can find where I have described my agency's plight with the M & P. Poor build quality, poor materials, I could go on and on.

We never seemed to have issues with our 4566s. As far as I know, everyone carried the same 4566 they were issued....the 4566s are what the 38 S & Ws got traded for. I personally am on my second M & P and my best friend is on his fourth.

Given what I've seen, I seriously question if mine will go bang when I unholster. I responded to a B & E call today. I can't say I was sure that thing would do what it was supposed to do when we were searching the house......I'm man enough to tell you that's scary. Never felt that way with my 4566.

Ever know that prickly feeling you get when you're standing at a door about to make entry.....I love when people who have never felt that, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I say it makes it even worse when you question your sidearm.

 

[Arik]

Has my M & P ever let me down? Without hi jacking the OP's thread, I can tell you based on practical experience I do not trust it. Do a search and you can find where I have described my agency's plight with the M & P. Poor build quality, poor materials, I could go on and on.

We never seemed to have issues with our 4566s. As far as I know, everyone carried the same 4566 they were issued....the 4566s are what the 38 S & Ws got traded for. I personally am on my second M & P and my best friend is on his fourth.

Given what I've seen, I seriously question if mine will go bang when I unholster. I responded to a B & E call today. I can't say I was sure that thing would do what it was supposed to do when we were searching the house......I'm man enough to tell you that's scary. Never felt that way with my 4566.

Ever know that prickly feeling you get when you're standing at a door about to make entry.....I love when people who have never felt that, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when I say it makes it even worse when you question your sidearm.

Just so you know Im blaming this on you. Yesterday at the range (shooting my 4506) i spotted a used 4564?TSW Its the 4566 DA/SA ,aluminum frame, with rail, ex PD gun for $360. Now i have to call tomorrow and have them hold it for me.

Sorry for the hijack

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[Leiden]

You saw a 4563TSW, and if there could only be two pistols in my life the second would be the 4563. Like a fool I sold the one I had....I had managed to suppress the memory until you brought it back. Damn..

I would bet money Sniper47 will come across one someday, sell it to me and then life will return to normal.

Just so you know Im blaming this on you. Yesterday at the range (shooting my 4506) i spotted a used 4564?TSW Its the 4566 DA/SA ,aluminum frame, with rail, ex PD gun for $360. Now i have to call tomorrow and have them hold it for me.

Sorry for the hijack

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[4506517]

Arik,

Leiden is absolutely correct. You saw a 4563TSW. He is also correct that it is one sweeeeeet shooting piece. The DAO version is the 4583TSW, and while not acknowledged as rare, I've only seen one and I bought it.

Please forgive my passion. It is hard to describe. When you've stood in that door way or watched time slow when a vehicle occupant starts making "the move", that big, heavy hunk of steel provides a cold sense of comfort that the "plastic fantastic" just can't touch. I would guess that to a civilian listening to someone kicking in the back door at 0300, it could well provide a sense of reassurance that plastic just cannot replicate.

 

[ColColt]

A lot of folks bash Massad Ayoob for various reasons but he was the one that was instrumental in my choosing to buy the 4506 in September of 1990. That, along with the then available Speer Flying Ashtray, were my top HD combo of choice. That pistol has never faltered over the decades I've owned it and it never had one jam with the infamous Flying Ashtray. It has fed 200 gr SWC's like it was designed for them and everything else.

That pistol currently resides under my pillow and stoked with...you guessed it, 200 gr JHP's by Speer. I trust my life with it. Thanks Mas for that recommendation.

 

[Old Corp]

I helped my department test and eval guns for the 'new' duty weapon just before I retired in '08. They made the transition to the M&P .45 after I left, so I was given my ol' 4566 upon retirement.
It lives in the safe.
I'm a 1911 auto guy - but have no qualms the 4566 will do what's asked.

 

[sniper47]

Good to see you back on the forum Leiden. I read your post and I am glad to see that old 4506 still performing. I see where you let go of the 4565tSW? Any specific reason (s) ?Wow, I was just thinking about that gun last week and started looking for another one. Take care and be safe out there.