SIG P320 Discharges?

[Onomea]

"The SIG Sauer P320 just took another hit, this time from the instructors trusted to keep America’s law enforcement officers safe and proficient with their firearms.

The National Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association (NLEFIA) announced today that, effective immediately, all variants of the P320, including its military-issued M17 and M18 models, are banned from use in all NLEFIA training courses. The reason: persistent and unresolved safety concerns, particularly unintentional discharges while holstered.

“This policy has been implemented in response to significant safety concerns, including multiple reported incidents of unintentional discharges involving holstered P320 pistols,” the organization wrote in a July 28 email to all members.

It is important to note that the NLEFIA is not a fringe alarmist group; it is a professional organization dedicated to supporting firearms instructors in law enforcement agencies across the country. Their members are the subject matter experts who shape firearms training policy, safety standards, and tactical curriculum in police departments nationwide. When they ban a weapon system from their courses, it sends a clear signal: something is seriously wrong...."

Nation’s Law Enforcement Instructors Declare SIG P320 Unsafe for Training

The moment the nation’s top firearms instructors ban one of your pistols from training, the debate shifts from design flaws to a crisis of trust.

sofrep.com

 

[LVSteve]

I don't know how any polymer frame pistol could be made safe with a single stage striker mechanism split between frame and slide. Polymer plastic fantastic pistols I am familiar with have cheesy sheet metal flanges molded into the frame to control slide position.

Small irony here. The P320 design uses a metal chassis housing the fire control parts inside the polymer shell. The slide rails are integral to the chassis. This design concept was an army requirement to provide modularity. The chassis is the serialized part, making it the "firearm". The design allows any chassis to be fitted to the M17 and M18, both of which also have subvariants with different grip frame dimensions to suit more shooters.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Not correct. All of them have a striker block mechanism that must be fully depressed by the trigger bar projection to move it out of the way of the striker and allow the striker to impact the primer. The stiker block is a physical barrier that fits in a channel on the striker, locking it into place until moved out of the way. This assumes of course that the striker block spring is keeping the striker block properly engaged with the striker. In the P320, unlike all other striker blocks in all other striker fired pistols, the spring is a torsion design with 2 legs and the center of the coil sitting on a post for retention. If it shifts on the post for some reason, one of the legs can fail to engage the striker block or the striker housing, effectively disabling the striker block. In all other pistols, the striker block spring is simply a coil spring completely captured inside a bore, pressing against a plunger, which is infinitely more positive and reliable than Sig's ridiculous design.

On top of that, they all have trigger bar disconnect devices that prevent firing out of battery. Most other striker fired pistols either have a heavier or longer trigger pull that either partially or fully cocks the striker spring. Most outside of Sigs also have a trigger safety to prevent ADs from drop inertia.

Well, I shall stand corrected on all but one thing. The Sig M17/M18 has a thumb safety that does in fact block the trigger. The big question is whether it is used by the person with the pistol in question. I have in fact observed several people not engaging the thumb safety, despite my warning them about it. Their comeback is that the P320 doesn't have one and they often forget to flip the safety off. Thus, even equipped with a thumb safety they don't use it and relegate the M17/18 to the same limitations of the P360. I do however have to agree that the system used on the P365 is a much better system, but I still have a thumb safety on mine. I was trained on a 1911 so forgetting to click off the safety does not happen, and it only happens when the pistol is coming up to shoot out in front of me.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

I can put my 1911, cocked and locked and safe, in a literal canvas sack and carry it over my shoulder safely. I can put my Model 10 or Model 36 in my pocket and stroll around all day and it won’t fire. I can put my Bodyguard 380 in my prison wallet and it won’t fire. I can toss an M&P in the air repeatedly like a pinwheel and it won’t fire.

The same is not true of the 320.

 

[Onomea]

Tabby, I have a P320 with a thumb safety, so the M17/M18 configuration.

Initially, I thought this would protect me from the "uncommanded discharge" issue. But, there are seven or perhaps eight, now, cases of M17/M18s with the issue, including one, at a Marine base in Okinawa, where witnesses claim that the M18 was holstered with the safety on when it suddenly went off. (And the Marines say they have video of the incident but so far it has not been released.)

The Michigan State police also use the M18 with a thumb safety and they reportedly had an uncommanded discharge instance. (Per Sig, they are back to using the M18 after a temporary stoppage directive.)

I also think that while the thumb safety prevents the trigger from being pulled, if the gun is indeed going off without the trigger being pulled, that's not much help.

I further think it has been explained above by posters who understand gun smithing that the way the M17/M18 manual safety engages with the sear will not prevent it from falling in all cases, that it engages the sear differently from other manual safeties. Maybe someone who knows will confirm that.

 

[biku324]

I am so sorry to have gobbled up 18 pages.

 

[MikeOrick]

Small irony here. The P320 design uses a metal chassis housing the fire control parts inside the polymer shell. The slide rails are integral to the chassis. This design concept was an army requirement to provide modularity. The chassis is the serialized part, making it the "firearm". The design allows any chassis to be fitted to the M17 and M18, both of which also have subvariants with different grip frame dimensions to suit more shooters.

An FCU and grip module was NOT a requirement of the MHS. That was NOT how they defined "modular". The Glock met the modular requirement as defined without either and was one of the finalists. The Glock was not selected because it cost over $100 million more than the SIG, NOT because it was not modular.

 

[Tabby Lynn]

Tabby, I have a P320 with a thumb safety, so the M17/M18 configuration.

Initially, I thought this would protect me from the "uncommanded discharge" issue. But, there are seven or perhaps eight, now, cases of M17/M18s with the issue, including one, at a Marine base in Okinawa, where witnesses claim that the M18 was holstered with the safety on when it suddenly went off. (And the Marines say they have video of the incident but so far it has not been released.)

The Michigan State police also use the M18 with a thumb safety and they reportedly had an uncommanded discharge instance. (Per Sig, they are back to using the M18 after a temporary stoppage directive.)

I also think that while the thumb safety prevents the trigger from being pulled, if the gun is indeed going off without the trigger being pulled, that's not much help.

I further think it has been explained above by posters who understand gun smithing that the way the M17/M18 manual safety engages with the sear will not prevent it from falling in all cases, that it engages the sear differently from other manual safeties. Maybe someone who knows will confirm that.

From what I understand the thumb safety only locks the trigger itself, and apparently not the sear. Does it matter? Maybe if the issue has nothing to do with the trigger itself???

OK, for all of you macho men out there, I carried my M17 for several years in a Blackhawk Level 2 holster without incident. I checked to see how the M17 is retained and there is a little catch attached to the lever to push on the outside of the holster to release. In the case of the Blackhawk, the retainer catches on the front of the trigger guard a good inch from the trigger itself, along with a more than adequate amount of clearance, making it an impossibility to contact the trigger.

In addition, the construction of the holster guides the pistol into the holster while not allowing the trigger itself to come in contact with any part of the holster until the lock keeps it in place. Once the pistol is firmly locked in the holster the trigger is covered and it is impossible to put your finger on without actually intentionally doing so until the pistol is released. As the pistol releases the trigger finger slides along the side of the pistol well clear and above the trigger. Is it possible to move the trigger finger from along side the pistol to the trigger, absolutely but that is not a fault of the trigger, it's operator error.

So, the bottom line as far as I am concerned is that the M17 has not failed me. It has functioned flawlessly both carrying or shooting several thousands of rounds. I no longer holster it and it is not loaded until taken out of its case on the firing line and made ready to shoot, Am I going to stop shooting the M17? Nope, but like all firearms, it is handed safely and properly at all times.

Did I, and do I consider the Blackhawk holster I was using, and still have despite not using a holster on the range anymore safe? Yes I do. Will it prevent an un-commanded discharge? Beats me. The only thing that I know for sure is that it discourages stupidity and carelessness.

My favorite handguns remain, and always will remain the M1911 and a S&W revolver. They don't suffer the foolishness of striker fired firearms.

 

[Puller]

I have to echo the earlier opinion. What was wrong with the Beretta M9 that warranted a change? It was probably the toughest and safest handgun ever used by the US military, at least after some early debugging. Virtually indestructible, always reliable.

Better yet, why did they go away from the 1911?

Sometimes it's hard to tell when people are joking with the written word. I assume that is the case here.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Sometimes it's hard to tell when people are joking with the written word. I assume that is the case here.

Or... it could be just Mild Cognitive Impairment.

 

[Harv 24]

A lot of wrong information in this thread. Striker fired pistols have been around for 40 plus years. and the Glock and S&W M&P pistols all have a firing pin/Striker block that will not allow the striker to move forward until the trigger is pressed back, allowing the striker block to lift upward, allowing the striker to travel freely.
The Glock and M&P strikers are only under partial tension and not enough to pierce a primer (if the striker could get past the striker safety) and then only if the trigger safety is depressed allowing the trigger to move reward.

The Sig's got a light trigger pull by having more pretension pushing against the striker, so much pretension, that if the striker were to release and move forward, has enough power to ignite a primer.
And Serpa Holsters were always garbage.... cheap plastic with a horrible latch mechanism that could get jammed up. But the Army loved them, because sadly the average rank and file Soldier, like most LEO, are not gun guys and there training is just enough to function with a pistol.

It's a hard truth but I rarely see anyone who shoots any hand gun well.

 

[Onomea]

I am so sorry to have gobbled up 18 pages.

Not at all.

As a P320 owner, this thread has been, and continues to be, very useful to me in making up my own mind, listening to both sides with care, and running down the various sources and views cited.

Where I am on this today is I cleaned my P320, and put it up this evening. I will wait and see if over time anything changes, but I doubt it will.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

A lot of wrong information in this thread. Striker fired pistols have been around for 40 plus years. and the Glock and S&W M&P pistols all have a firing pin/Striker block that will not allow the striker to move forward until the trigger is pressed back, allowing the striker block to lift upward, allowing the striker to travel freely.

Just for clarity, EVERY striker fired pistol on the market today that I'm aware of, regardless of brand or model, has a striker block.

 

[Equus]

I did not specify that a little bit of lube causes the supposed uncommand firing of the firearm. It was to bring to light the fact that while this could add to the possibility. It would not be unusual for about 90% of all firearm owners to never read anything in a firearms manual other that how to take it apart and clean it, maybe not even then.

Now let's look at the basic design of all striker-fired firearms. Each and every one is an accident looking for a place to happen. They are all inherently unsafe. What else can you call a striker under spring pressure hovering thousandths of an inch over the primer, ready to release and jump forward to set the firearm off at its whim? No matter what you want to think, strikers are not, nor ever will be really safe, no matter who makes it. This is simply because there is nothing locking the striker in place other than a trigger until, for whatever reason, it releases.

This might be the most uninformed post of this thread.

 

[Equus]

Small irony here. The P320 design uses a metal chassis housing the fire control parts inside the polymer shell. The slide rails are integral to the chassis. This design concept was an army requirement to provide modularity. The chassis is the serialized part, making it the "firearm". The design allows any chassis to be fitted to the M17 and M18, both of which also have subvariants with different grip frame dimensions to suit more shooters.

The FCU was not a requirement. Accessory rails and changeable grip inserts were all that was called for. Extra points were awarded for an FCU, which only 2 of the several accepted entrants had. Everything the army said it wanted was covered by the M9A3.

 

[Mr.Cip]

Today I received an email from Sig regarding the P320.
See attached file. When I transferred the email to a file it converted to plain text, it lost all its formatting. Sorry about that.

 

[RebCop]

So they sent corporate propaganda.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Ron Cohen: “Prepare the shovels!”

Sig: “but…people have died. This is a big deal.”

“DEEPER I SAID! WE’RE DEFENDING FREEDOM HERE YPUR FOXHOLE NEEDS DEPTH! THEY JUST NEED THE FACTS!”

That email does absolutely nothing to answer any of the legitimate controversies about the 320, especially when it’s the primary alleged culpable answer in a death. Call me crazy, but when I watched Wyoming’s setup and discharges, I felt like I was watching the anatomy of a plane crash or something. A pistol that fires off of slide input is inherently dangerous, and he was able to duplicate it at will.

 

[Chubbs103]

I wonder how many folks that believe striker fired is impossible to do safely have also carried a Winchester Model 70 or similar bolt action around in the woods.

This is just food for thought, and not meant to lessen concerns of P320 unintended discharges.

 

[marktc223]

Received this message from Sig Sauer to my email. This is an unedited message.
Note to moderator: This is a large message from Sig Sauer. Sorry about the format.

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​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ P320 Information

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​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ P320 Safety Information Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information. SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts. The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. FBI Testing and Report A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing. Department of Homeland Security An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America. U.S. Air Force M18 There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information. P320 Range and Training Bans Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth. The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here. As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses. We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team. SIG SAUER, Inc. 72 Pease Blvd. Newington, NH 03801