Recently received a 1000ct 185gr JHP 45 caliper bullets from Evergladesammo where there is nothing but rave reviews and based on appearance, diameter and weight I agree. After extensive research most COAL are around 1.220 - 1.230 with the shortest at 1.190. I then took some factory ammo with 185gr JHP and did the "Clunk" test and they measured 1.202. Now here's the fun part in order to replicate the clunk test I had to seat the Everglades bullets to 1.167 and barely enough left to crimp...I'm guessing it's the bullets profile (they do measure .451). Any thoughts as to whether or not I'd be ok seating to that depth ?
Can 1.167 COAL f/185gr JHP 45ACP be right
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Sure would like a picture of that "Bad Boy" next to a standard JHP 185 if you have them.
That shape has to be wild.
That shape has to be wild.
mike campbell
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I'm puzzled.
I looked at them on their website and there is nothing unconventional about their shape. I compared 3 185HP's ... aZero, a Nosler, and a Sierra .... and although they have distinctly different cavity shapes, depths and diameters, the bearing surfaces are virtually the same length at .260-.265", leaving the nose lengths to vary by .010" at most. There is no dimensional difference that would account for an OAL variance of more than 10-12 thousandths. Certainly not 30+ thousandths, as in 1.167 versus 1.202.
I've seated the Nosler 185JHP to 1.240 in a match chamber without issue. Some bullseye shooters use 1.225.
Can you describe your clunk test in detail?
I looked at them on their website and there is nothing unconventional about their shape. I compared 3 185HP's ... aZero, a Nosler, and a Sierra .... and although they have distinctly different cavity shapes, depths and diameters, the bearing surfaces are virtually the same length at .260-.265", leaving the nose lengths to vary by .010" at most. There is no dimensional difference that would account for an OAL variance of more than 10-12 thousandths. Certainly not 30+ thousandths, as in 1.167 versus 1.202.
I've seated the Nosler 185JHP to 1.240 in a match chamber without issue. Some bullseye shooters use 1.225.
Can you describe your clunk test in detail?
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I generally seat bullets for semi-auto pistols to maximum magazine length if possible. Not always possible, however.
My notes indicate I used an OAL of 1.155" for the Sierra 185 flatnose match bullet. I seldom shoot jacketed bullets in any handgun and haven't used the Sierra in a long time, so I don't remember whether I tried to seat these bullets farther out or just used the Sierra recommended OAL, 1.155"
A deep-seated bullet hurts nothing as long as the powder charge is adjusted accordingly, bullet doesn't move under recoil, and feeding is reliable.
My notes indicate I used an OAL of 1.155" for the Sierra 185 flatnose match bullet. I seldom shoot jacketed bullets in any handgun and haven't used the Sierra in a long time, so I don't remember whether I tried to seat these bullets farther out or just used the Sierra recommended OAL, 1.155"
A deep-seated bullet hurts nothing as long as the powder charge is adjusted accordingly, bullet doesn't move under recoil, and feeding is reliable.
fredj338
Member
As always, oal is bullet & gun specific.
Clunk test is where you take the barrel out of the firearm and drop for comparison purposes a factory round into it...you'll hear go clunk and take note where the base of the case is, it ideally is just below flush. then turn barrel upside down and round should freely drop out. Now on a reloaded round perform the same test. If your reloaded COAL is good the clunk test results should mimic a factory round. In my situation at a COAL of 1.220 I didn't get the same clunk sound but more importantly the case base was about 40 thousands above flush and when I turned the barrel upside down the round wouldn't drop out...instead I had to pull it out and land marks were visible on the bullet at about 40 thousands above the case mouth.
As far as bullet shape mentioned in another post, I took a sierra 185gr JHP and just for grins drop it into a case mouth backwards and it went in quite a bit further than the everglades 185gr JHP...meaning that on a Sierra bullet the .451 shank doesn't extend as far forward....hard to tell by looking at them but, definitely the sierra drops face forward into the case much further. I know it's the bullet profile causing my issue I was hoping for some input on whether I should attempt going with 1.1675 and if so any advise ie reduced powder charge etc etc.
yes removed bell. with land marks on bullet, I'm pretty sure it headspacing on the bullet instead of the case mouth.
HCH
Member
I found that I had to reduce Berry's 200gr. Flat point OAL from 1.225 for a 4566 to 1.167 OAL for a 4513. Shorter leade into rifling for 4513.
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At 1.167 did you cut back on powder charge? I'm using Bullseye and Sierra reloading manual list 4.2 to 5.6 and Lyman lists 3.5 to 6.0. I'm thinking that given the my shorter COAL that I'm going to go on the lighter side at about 4.6 and see what results I'll get...will be shooting over a chrony. Any thoughts ?
What pistol are you loading these for? M&P? Glock?
Rifling varies...
Rifling and bullet shape dictate the max length that will work in a gun. The 'smallball' ammo I loaded for my 9mm had to be 1.06" or LESS to not jam in the rifling. The bullet 'LOOKED' like it was sunk in too deep. Remember that a semi auto crimp doesn't have to squeeze on the bullet, but just remove the flare so that the case can headspace on the mouth like it should. Your COAL sounds really short, but if you are hitting the rifling, no choice, Might lower the powder charge some and work up.
PS: I ordered 1000 of those smallball that weren't described as that on the website. I had a miserable time with those.
Rifling and bullet shape dictate the max length that will work in a gun. The 'smallball' ammo I loaded for my 9mm had to be 1.06" or LESS to not jam in the rifling. The bullet 'LOOKED' like it was sunk in too deep. Remember that a semi auto crimp doesn't have to squeeze on the bullet, but just remove the flare so that the case can headspace on the mouth like it should. Your COAL sounds really short, but if you are hitting the rifling, no choice, Might lower the powder charge some and work up.
PS: I ordered 1000 of those smallball that weren't described as that on the website. I had a miserable time with those.
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Springfield 1911
Bullet profile makes all the difference.
185gr bullets have a short OAL" & usually have a shallower seating depth. Obviously a shorter COAL" changes the seating depth, but check the relative difference & make a powder adjustment if you have less available case volume with that setting.
Different pistols have different COAL" requirements even when using the same bullet because the leade is short. My Colt Mk.IV 1911 has a very short leade usually requiring special attention where all my S&W 3rd Gens have a generous leade & are almost always not a factor in the COAL".
You sound like you've got the idea on the plunk test (not clunk) but here's some tips I've posted before.
.
Plunk Test for a semi-automatic pistol:
This is how you do a "plunk test" but for me it's most important, and accurate, how the assembled "test" round sounds, and feels, when you drop it in the barrel's chamber, as much as where the rim is in relation to the hood. (The rim should not extend beyound the end of the hood.)
When you drop the round in the removed barrel's chamber, it should make a nice metal to metal clink, "plunk", sound.
(Make sure you've added a minimal (taper) crimp that's just enough to remove any case flare from the sample round before, otherwise the results are deceiving.) That's the case mouth hitting the chamber's shoulder, where the cartridge headspaces on.
If the bullet is seated out too much (long) then the bullet's ogive hits the rifling & you don't get the same sound, but rather a dull thud. Additionally, if you rotate the round in the chamber it should be nice & smooth (case mouth on chamber shoulder). If it's too long, it'll feel rough because the bullet's ogive is rubbing against the rifling. (Remember, eliminate any flare before checking.)
Initially, seat the bullet out farther than needed & slowly adjust your seating die deeper, doing a plunk test between adjustments until you get the proper results. Then set your final crimp & double check the results before continuing loading. Verify fit in magazine too.
It doesn't take long to get the right adjustment & once you record the OAL", for that specific bullet, you can use that measurement next time & forego the plunk test, if you like. Make sure it's at or below the SAAMI max. OAL" for that cartridge.
(I like to load mine as long as possible while still passing the plunk test & not exceeding max. OAL")
Also, different guns have different amounts for freebore/leade (space between the chamber shoulder & the start of the rifling), so one gun's barrel that can handle a max. OAL" assembled cartridge may find it not to be ideal for another's, due to bullet shape, so double check if in question.
It only takes a minute to remove & use the barrel in question & eliminate any doubts.
.
185gr bullets have a short OAL" & usually have a shallower seating depth. Obviously a shorter COAL" changes the seating depth, but check the relative difference & make a powder adjustment if you have less available case volume with that setting.
Different pistols have different COAL" requirements even when using the same bullet because the leade is short. My Colt Mk.IV 1911 has a very short leade usually requiring special attention where all my S&W 3rd Gens have a generous leade & are almost always not a factor in the COAL".
You sound like you've got the idea on the plunk test (not clunk) but here's some tips I've posted before.
.
Plunk Test for a semi-automatic pistol:
This is how you do a "plunk test" but for me it's most important, and accurate, how the assembled "test" round sounds, and feels, when you drop it in the barrel's chamber, as much as where the rim is in relation to the hood. (The rim should not extend beyound the end of the hood.)
When you drop the round in the removed barrel's chamber, it should make a nice metal to metal clink, "plunk", sound.
(Make sure you've added a minimal (taper) crimp that's just enough to remove any case flare from the sample round before, otherwise the results are deceiving.) That's the case mouth hitting the chamber's shoulder, where the cartridge headspaces on.
If the bullet is seated out too much (long) then the bullet's ogive hits the rifling & you don't get the same sound, but rather a dull thud. Additionally, if you rotate the round in the chamber it should be nice & smooth (case mouth on chamber shoulder). If it's too long, it'll feel rough because the bullet's ogive is rubbing against the rifling. (Remember, eliminate any flare before checking.)
Initially, seat the bullet out farther than needed & slowly adjust your seating die deeper, doing a plunk test between adjustments until you get the proper results. Then set your final crimp & double check the results before continuing loading. Verify fit in magazine too.
It doesn't take long to get the right adjustment & once you record the OAL", for that specific bullet, you can use that measurement next time & forego the plunk test, if you like. Make sure it's at or below the SAAMI max. OAL" for that cartridge.
(I like to load mine as long as possible while still passing the plunk test & not exceeding max. OAL")
Also, different guns have different amounts for freebore/leade (space between the chamber shoulder & the start of the rifling), so one gun's barrel that can handle a max. OAL" assembled cartridge may find it not to be ideal for another's, due to bullet shape, so double check if in question.
It only takes a minute to remove & use the barrel in question & eliminate any doubts.
.
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After seating and taper "crimping" the round.
What is the case diameter at the top of the case just before the bullet??
Forget what "other" ammo or bullets OAL are, as mentioned the correct fit is bullet and barrel specific.
Most JHP do have a shorter OAL than say a RN bullet.
"Plunk" not Clunk
What is the case diameter at the top of the case just before the bullet??
Forget what "other" ammo or bullets OAL are, as mentioned the correct fit is bullet and barrel specific.
Most JHP do have a shorter OAL than say a RN bullet.
"Plunk" not Clunk
mike campbell
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My thoughts are you have a good handle on the issue.
I still can't picture that bullet, though, or the loaded round. Any chance of a pic of the Everglades next to a Sierra? or maybe the loaded round?
I compared Zero, Nosler and Sierra 185JHP's. The nose profiles and cavities are significantly different. :
Yet the OAL's differ by a maximum of only .008"
and the full-diameter (.4515") shanks are the same length (+/- .005") near as I can measure:
Seated to 1.225" for my gun, a Nosler looks like this
And seated to 1.167" looks like this ... doable, but just barely back of the break point on the ogive
Not to my liking, but it surely should not phlunk the chunk/plunk test in any chamber.
My point is, these three 185's selected at random are virtually identical. Once an OAL was selected, I'd expect to be able to load them interchangeably without adjustment. The Everglades sounds to be wildly different, but I can't see it in the pics on the website.
fredj338
Member
There is no linear reduction for powder charge vs oal. So if your charge wt is at midrange or less, no reduction is needed seating another 0.010". It doesn't move the pressure needle much.
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noylj
Member
A very short-nose L-SWC, like the H&G #130 185gn button-nose bullet needs to seated at around 1.1500". For SWC bullets in .45 ACP, the "usual" seating spec is 0.928" from the case head to the bullet shoulder.
Just my 2 cents to the above comments:
Plunk test:
The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Determination of COL:
Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by;
your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions)
and
your gun (feed ramp)
and
your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding)
and
the PARTICULAR bullet you are using.
What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel and lock the die body down temporarily).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Just my 2 cents to the above comments:
Plunk test:
The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Determination of COL:
Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by;
your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions)
and
your gun (feed ramp)
and
your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding)
and
the PARTICULAR bullet you are using.
What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel and lock the die body down temporarily).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Attachments
In general I agree with you & but since we don't know exact the dimensions on the Everglades bullet we can only speculate.
Remember though that it's the bullet's nose profile, from the ogive to the tip, that is what is going to determine the maximum COAL" IF the pistol has a short leade/freebore, not the bullet's overall length.
The nose on the Sierra is noticeably wider (shallower angle) & I suspect would have a shorter maximum COAL" when used in a pistol with a critical leade.
No doubt if you seated each bullet to find it's maximum COAL" in a given barrel the different profiles would dictate different lengths.
Going from a 1.225" COAL to 1.167" is a difference of .035". That calculates to 8.6% less case volume in my spreadsheet.
(My 185gr Noslers loaded to 1.220" COAL have a bullet seated depth (in the case) of .208" deep using 30.8% of the case's volume.)
Maybe not the end of the world with a light load of fine powder but if it was a full/+P load with a bulky powder it would be more critical.
.
After seating and taper "crimping" the round.
What is the case diameter at the top of the case just before the bullet??
Forget what "other" ammo or bullets OAL are, as mentioned the correct fit is bullet and barrel specific.
Most JHP do have a shorter OAL than say a RN bullet.
"Plunk" not Clunk
After seating and taper crimp case mouth diameter is .471
My thoughts are you have a good handle on the issue.
I still can't picture that bullet, though, or the loaded round. Any chance of a pic of the Everglades next to a Sierra? or maybe the loaded round?
I compared Zero, Nosler and Sierra 185JHP's. The nose profiles and cavities are significantly different. :
Yet the OAL's differ by a maximum of only .008"
and the full-diameter (.4515") shanks are the same length (+/- .005") near as I can measure:
Seated to 1.225" for my gun, a Nosler looks like this
And seated to 1.167" looks like this ... doable, but just barely back of the break point on the ogive
Not to my liking, but it surely should not phlunk the chunk/plunk test in any chamber.
My point is, these three 185's selected at random are virtually identical. Once an OAL was selected, I'd expect to be able to load them interchangeably without adjustment. The Everglades sounds to be wildly different, but I can't see it in the pics on the website.
Sorry, I don't have any pics but the last pic at the bottom of your post looks very close to how my bullet looks seated. I did make it to the range yesterday and chronograph them under 4.6grs of bullseye and they ran at 763fps average, recoil was mild, primers looked good, fed and ejected without issue. So I think that although they're seated further than I'm use to or like, I think were on safe ground. Next I'm going to load some up at 4.8grs, 5.0grs and 5.2grs and see. I'll post results.
4barrel
Member
From what I have seen if a 1911 will shoot a short bullet you can feed them almost anything. It is hard to go wrong with a middle of the road fast burning powder. I just checked my oal on my 195 target load and it is 1.142. A lot of stock guns will not shoot a bullet this short. Take your barrel out and if your bullet drops in freely all the way you should be ready to test.
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mike campbell
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That line scribed on the bullet is the point where it will contact the rifling. The cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. If a bullet MUST be seated that deeply in order for the cartridge to completely chamber, that suggests the chamber is cut with virtually NO leade. Surely not.
Examine the 1.202" factory round that clunks and see how it differs from this one with respect to the amount of full diameter exposed above the case mouth. If the factory round clunks, then an Everglade loaded to duplicate the amount of exposed shoulder ... regardless of the nose profile and OAL...must also clunk. Please load an Everglades to match the factory by eyeball with respect to the full diameter shank, then tell us how long the Everglade round is. Then try the clunk test again.
bigggbbruce
Member
I picked up a spare barrel for my 1076.. The leade for the new barrel was shorter than the factory original.
Went to my gunsmith and in 3 minutes he handed me my new barrel back with a slight trim to the rifling.. No more problem
P.S. I do not want to shoot guns of the same caliber that need special loaded ammo... FIX THE GUN.
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Well here are the results... As mentioned above the 4.6grs bulleye =763fps and I was optimistic but, then today tested 4.8grs=786fps, 5.0grs=800fps and 5.2grs=816. An average of 18fps increase for every .2gr increase in powder...not what I was expecting, heck I'd have to go 7+grs of powder to get anywhere near 1000fps and I know that amount of powder (bulleye) would be unsafe...confused...any thoughts ?
HCH
Member
Sorry Charlie, I was shooting mid range loads so I had no reason to cut back.
Bill Lear
Member
I just checked my own load record and noted that I loaded Xtreme 185 gr. TC plated to a cartridge overall length of 1.15".
Believe me when I tell you, building your cartridges "short" is better than building them to maximum OAL. consider that the maximum OAL is centered around the ROUND NOSE profile which means no blunt nose, TC style bullet is going to match.
TC, blunt-nose bullets need to be seated basically as deep as necessary to put the cone-to-meplat transition at the level of the same diameter round nose profile.
The focus is to load the TC style bullet deep enough so that the entire cartridge is released by the magazine feed lips in sync with where the nose is on the feed ramp in a 1911 pattern handgun.
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