Can anybody identify this? Civil War?

[MelvinWalker]

This was purchased by me in another box of firearm "stuff" at an auction. I am almost sure there is a Civil War era m1851 belt in the group and a couple of other what I guess you could call "barreled actions"? I'll post pics of the rest of the stuff tomorrow after work, but this one has me stumped.

The barred action is a muzzle type loader, barrel is 12 inches long, and has a heavy removable brass "plunger" on the end that looks to be some sort of bullet starter on an older percussion rifle. The only marking I see is on the underneath of the barrel and I see a "22" marked in a font reminiscent of 1910 S&W serial numbers..

With this group, there was also a couple more of these barrel/tangs that I'll post tomorrow.

Because of the items I got with this, I believe it all to be Civil War era stuff, I just can't exactly identify it.

Any definitive YES's and Civil War buffs here?

 

[MelvinWalker]

I can't believe no one here has a clue what this thing is? I have done multiple google lens reverse searches, and I get an occasional "picket rifle" reference to the brass bullet starter, but other than that, I don't know.

 

[sceva]

Is it set up for percussion? I don't see a nipple or hole. I do not think it is civil war related. Maybe that era though; I am no expert. What it looks like to me is a short barrel for a target firearm (pistol) or possibly a buggy rifle with a nice bullet starter.

 

[lihpster]

Is it set up for percussion? I don't see a nipple or hole. I do not think it is civil war related. Maybe that era though; I am no expert. What it looks like to me is a short barrel for a target firearm (pistol) or possibly a buggy rifle with a nice bullet starter.

The flash hole would be on the side of the barrel. Unfortunately, the side tuned away in the pics.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

It definitely looks like a bullet starter/seater of some sort.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[MelvinWalker]

The flash hole would be on the side of the barrel. Unfortunately, the side tuned away in the pics.

There is no flash hole that I see, nor firing pin mechanism...Also the breech block unscrews and the barrel is rifled....Also there were three more barrels with it that do have flash holes that are shown below the one I am asking about...All of this was from one auction lot and had a Indian Wars M1872 belt and some other leather with it from the 1870's.

 

[lihpster]

Melvin, as far as the bullet starter goes, I don't have any information on that, except....
These are some pics of an original gun that my dad traced back to coming out of OHIO in the 1840s. It has the same muzzle treatment as your "barreled action". Never understood why they took the time to machine it, until now. So, this type of thing was done pre-war, so it still could be Civil War era. Also, I got a pic of the flash hole setup on this gun. Notice it has a patent breech design with the nipple going directly into the breech block. Yours was either in a early stage of construction, as locating the lock in the stock and relative to the barrel is usually done before drilling the flash hole, or it may have been for a patent breech plug and a different one was fitted for some reason.

 

[MelvinWalker]

Melvin, as far as the bullet starter goes, I don't have any information on that, except....
These are some pics of an original gun that my dad traced back to coming out of OHIO in the 1840s. It has the same muzzle treatment as your "barreled action". Never understood why they took the time to machine it, until now. So, this type of thing was done pre-war, so it still could be Civil War era. Also, I got a pic of the flash hole setup on this gun. Notice it has a patent breech design with the nipple going directly into the breech block. Yours was either in a early stage of construction, as locating the lock in the stock and relative to the barrel is usually done before drilling the flash hole, or it may have been for a patent breech plug and a different one was fitted for some reason.
View attachment 767143

Very interesting....That's rare when posters ask questions and two people learn something~!

If I look in the barrel on the mentioned action, it looks like some old fouling inside the barrel like it had been fired, but I see no way to get spark to the charge? It looks like .44 caliber or so....The other barrels shown in my last photo look like they have a spark hole as well as they may be smoothbore. They look relic condition, whereas this one looks fairly clean.

 

[lihpster]

Very interesting....That's rare when posters ask questions and two people learn something~!

If I look in the barrel on the mentioned action, it looks like some old fouling inside the barrel like it had been fired, but I see no way to get spark to the charge? It looks like .44 caliber or so....The other barrels shown in my last photo look like they have a spark hole as well as they may be smoothbore. They look relic condition, whereas this one looks fairly clean.

Another thing to remember is back then, alot of people specialized in building parts of a gun to be fitted and assembled by the gun builder. So, you might have a guy who only builds the locks, another guy makes the metal hardware, such as the butt plate and trigger guard, and some body might just do barrels. So, a gun maker might have a bunch of stock parts on hand, ready to be made to the customers specs.
If that is fouling from firing, I would say it either had a patent breech plug that has since gone missing and a standard plug was fitted, or, possibly it was a standard breech and the barrel was cut down, removing the original flash hole, and a new breech was fitted.

 

[lihpster]

This may shed some light on the subject:

https://capandball.com/percussion-picket-rifle-by-r-m-wilder-and-the-early-target-shooting-in-the-united-states/

That puts it in the right timeline, but I don't see where anyone has shown a military connection, just a civilian target shooting application. Although, a ton of privately owned weapons were used on both sides of the war.

 

[2152hq]

The bbl portion looks to me to be perhaps a cut-off from an orig rifle bbl that had the bullet starter on it all along.

Maybe the rear half of the bbl was damaged or the rifling in the first portion was pitted so the forward section was salvaged along with the Bullet Starter.

What makes me think this is that the front sight dove tail is already cut into the bbl. Something not generally done until the gun is nearly finished. Sights go on last in gun building usually w/muzzle loaders.

The breech plug looks newer made and a composite build of a couple of pieces mated together (breech plug plus a tang).
Not all together unkn but originals will usually show a one piece part casting or a forged piece.
The Tang is already drilled and counter bored for the Tang Screw as well.
Something not done till the bbl is inletted into the stock and the trigger mechanism is as well. The tang screw bolts the two pieces together with the stock sandwiched inbetween.

The bbl needing to be inletted into the stock to do this would show either a couple cross pin or wedge 'loops' dovetailed or soldered to the bottom flat. This to secure the bbl & stock wood together.

If it was to be a design like the short bbl'd Buggy Rifles w/ Under Hammer action and NO forend wood at all, there would need to be further support (Upper & Lower tang in one unit) to the butt stock wood showing of the bbl assembly at the breech plug in the way of a heavier breech plug.
Many of those use a tapered cross pin to lock the hand- screwed into place bbl securely in position yet allow easy dismount for cleaning.

The 'fouling' in the bbl may be old debris from the old orig bbl having been shot and cleaned. Still there
from long ago. Non-corrosive remnants of cleaning.
Old BP fouling would be corrosive.

There are more than a couple diff types of starters. The more precise ones are two piece affairs that engrave the rifling into the patched projectile in the bottom section of the Starter itself as it enters the muzzle of the bore. Many use oiled paper in a 2piece cross style configuration patch.
Simple starters just funnel the projectile, sometimes a patched sometimes just a slightly oversized lead or lubed bulleted projectile into the bore for ease of loading.

A bore designed for a Bulleted projectile will have a faster rate of twist than one made for a round ball.
A bulleted bore may be around 1-18 or so where the same caliber in a round ball would be 1-35.
Caliber has a lot to do with it as well as how long the bbl may be.

 

[MelvinWalker]

Thanks so much gentlemen. great knowledge base here.

I think the biggest value from this whole thing is the bullet starter.

 

[Green Frog]

Going out on a limb here, but I seem to recall bullet starters like that used with some dueling pistols. The most undeniable fact is that is definitely a bullet starter. Some of the very best were rifled to match the barrel and had 3-4 pins in the starter to match holes in the face of the muzzle so the bullet began in the loader to engrave filling. See references elsewhere to Harry Pope and the “Breech-muzzle Loader”.