Cannot Remove Cylinder Stop

[btvarner]

Looking for some feedback from gunsmiths only. S&W Model 49. Like new in box. Never been apart (I don’t think it has ever been fired). Doing an action job & have never seen this before.

First, let me say I am not a newbie when it comes to doing action jobs for Smith revolvers. While I am not a professional gunsmith, I have been to the Smith & Wesson Revolver school in Springfield in 1977. I was a department armor for 15 years (Was a smaller department of 50 officers so this position was on the side). I have done action jobs on probably 50 or 60 Smith revolvers over the years. However, most were several years ago. I do not say this to make you believe I am good, just that I have been around for a long time………

So, this is the first time I have even had difficulty in removing the cylinder stop from a Smith revolver. I believe it is also the first time I have ever seen this machining issue (See Images).

Have others seen this problem? How did you resolve?

This gun is perfect. Never carried. Not a scratch. Clean. Like it was stored in a climate controlled safe since new. So, I do not need to remove this piece. I can very easily clean & lube around it and reassemble. Which is what I may do, but I normally polish the area of the cylinder stop that contact the cylinder so as to reduce marks on the cylinder during cycling.

Maybe I am just not holding my mouth right. More than an answer from someone on how to get it apart, I am interested in whether anyone has seen this problem before? This gun was built in 1979.

Probably 80% of the revolvers I have done action work on were from batches of Smith’s purchased near the same time in the early 1970’s. Some department owned, some officer privately purchased around the same period. Maybe this is common, just not to me. Thanks!

 

[btvarner]

I should add that the rebound slide pin does seem straight or not bent in any way?

 

[Grimjaws]

My .02

I don't have the experience you have but have done a few jobs on revolvers myself and if it were me - clean and lube under and around it and let it go at that. You can at least get underneath and that can help some.

I'd hate to see you break anything as it may be a bear to get a new one back in.

Just my .02

 

[Protocall_Design]

Those are some very good pictures of the problem. It looks like they probably bent the trigger pivot pin to get it in there. If you need to get it out, the only way I can see is to put the cylinder stop back in the "up" position and Dremel an area of relief above the trigger pin to allow it room to come out. The relief would have to be tapered from the lower edge to match the step cut, to the upper edge, being careful not to make any gouges that would show when the sideplate is on.

 

[WR Moore]

Pictures 2-4 show a lot of tool chatter marks. The memory isn't what it used to be and I don't feel like pulling one of mine down, but I don't recall the cylinder stop sitting in a recess in the frame.

Rough measurement from the pictures seems to show the width of the cylinder stop that's catching on the edge of the recess to be very slightly wider than the lip of the recess that's trapping it.

Discretion and a return to the factory might be a more cautious approach.

 

[steelslaver]

They have to be just right to get them out but yours show a minus clearance. Nothing in the hook of stop? Tiny burr, carbon build up?

Is the stud square and the trigger not rubbing the side plate at opening? If stud was tweaked in at top the trigger would be off. Obviously they managed to get it installed. Did they pry stud over then back? Kind of hard to believe but a puzzle as how it could be put on and not come off otherwise. You could take some of the top off the stop, remove it and try to replace it with another one and check lock up.

In fact if you stick another stop on the stop stud will its hook fit between trigger stud and frame and go down to lay on top of one in gun??? Should.

 

[steelslaver]

ya, may not have actually bend it, just sprung it a bit. Still not the right way.

The point about trying a second stop was that it is very possible that the original stop that is stuck in gun might be just a bit oversized. Either the actual lock piece is a bit high or the inside of the curve isn't enough to lower it far enough down on the trigger stud for top to clear.

If a second stop sits on top of the first and clears the frame where original is binding it would show that original is the problem.

The original could be removed by either taking a bit off the top of stop, carefully clearancing the frame as suggested by Protocall Design or possibly using a very fine burr to remove some material from inside curve of stop while not hitting trigger stud. even if you took a bit off the top of lock it could still function correctly. They can be adjusted to rise higher. But for all we know it is bottoming out in the cylinder notches well before it runs out of travel now. I am more inclined to believe the inside of curve where it fits around trigger stud needs a bit more clearance to allow it to travel down a bit more so it can be removed.

There is never much room to get these out or back. Just a bit of a burr or extra material on inside of that curve would prevent it from moving down enough for top to clear.

Of course it could just be left as is. Functioning stops normally live a very long life and seldom need to be replaced. You could even polish the top of it and slightly break the edges by wedging it up in slot using a tiny piece of brass under it. Placing heavy tape on frame all the way around it and use a small felt wheel and polishing compound on a Dremel. Or even rubbing the top with real fine sand paper. It don't take much.

 

[btvarner]

Ok, thanks for everyone’s feedback. No one has mentioned ever seeing this uneven height surface machined issue before so I guess it is rare. I have decided to leave the stop in the gun & work around it.

Too bad because my version of an action/trigger job includes smoothing/polishing the pins, embossed bearing surfaces & mating parts surfaces, along with Wolff or Wilson springs, and just a touch on the actual trigger/hammer sear engagement point. Leaving in the stop will make it trickier around the trigger pin. Just by way of information (Assuming the gun is NOT going to be a uniform carry piece directly out in the weather.) I clean/degrease the lock work. Use a good oil on the interior & all pieces. Then clean with cloth pieces and cotton tips until everything looks dry. When it looks dry, then it has the correct amount of protective oil. Upon assembly I do not use more oil or gun grease on the lock work. I use molybdenum disulfide powder on all movement surfaces. Slick as snot and does not ever thicken in cold weather. Almost as important is to get the owner to understand that they never, I mean never allow barrel cleaning solvents or other liquids to run into any cracks at any time. This can be avoided by using several rags in and around the revolver when cleaning to block off excess liquid from anywhere except the inside the barrel area.

As I stated earlier, as far as I can tell working with the stop in place, both trigger & stop pins are perpendicular to the frame. I don’t have another J-Frame stop around at the moment.

The area between the frame and the trigger pin is only about .043”. Too small for me to reliably do any filing without chancing damage to the trigger pin. I do think that between those two pins I could spring them enough to get the stop out, but I choose not to chance it. If the deeper machined portion had just been up about .010” wider, it would be enough to disengage the stop from the stop pin and allow removal……

There is not burr on the underside of the stop arm. No carbon build up as the revolver appears to have never been fired. Front of the cylinder only has a slight darkened ring around 3 of the cylinders, like from factory test firing. Again, there is not enough room between the trigger pin and the bottom of the stop arm to do much material removal on the arm bottom. I could cut small pieces of sand paper. Place the strips rough surface out against the trigger pin. Hold the bottom of the stop arm down against the pin is wiggle the paper back & forth. But .010” is a lot to take off this way.

In my opinion, taking .010” off the top of the stop is too chancy. I think you are correct in that I will try taping off the frame around the stop slot, holding it up as far as possible, and breaking the edges then polishing the surface.

There are always methods around a problem. Finesse to brute force. It is just something interesting that I had never seen before. Always something new to discover.

 

[jjfitch]

Don't do it!

It sucks to be OCD! Sometimes I find myself creating a bigger problem than I started with trying to "fix stuff that ain't quite broke enough yet"!

I'm with you on this one work around it and move on to the next thing that "ain't broke enough yet"!

 

[btvarner]

I now "think" that the problem lay with that specific milling operation for this revolver.

Using a feeler gauge, the higher cut portion of the frame to pin distance is the same as the bottom (Near the far side of the frame) distance. So the cut is not perpendicular, or straight up and down.

I think that when this frame went through that specific milling operation, on that specific machine, either the milling head was out of tram (Not straight), or the frame itself had some foreign object under the upper part of the frame not allowing it to lay flat. Either way would have caused the cut (See the chatter marks) to be off.

If this was an old beater I would be more inclined to work further to get the stop off. As it is I will work around it.

 

[Funflyer]

Though you mentioned "Gunsmiths only", that's not a very difficult job I can see there. The diamond burr in my pic has a tip that's .028" and the taper doesn't exceed the width of that gap between the trigger pin and frame until just over .125" so with a steady hand and some patience a relief could easily be made in the frame without damaging the trigger pin. Another option, if you know someone with a mini mill it could easily be relieved with a 1mm end mill. Sounds like you're more than capable of getting it done one way or another so don't give up that easily.

 

[btvarner]

I will look in my Dremel tools and see if I have something similar............ I also have a milling attachment to my lathe, but I hardly call myself a machinist!

 

[btvarner]

The smallest Dremel bit I have on hand is shaped like yours, but about .048" at the tip & .125" at the widest. Could not find the size you have with initial online looking.

Did find the very small end mills that would work. But, that would involve machining a jig to hold the frame + buying the end mill. Not worth it to me for something that is already functioning correctly.

By the way, my frame to pin narrowest distance is .043", not .125". Thanks!

 

[steelslaver]

I think that you are right about it not getting machined right. I can get pretty bull headed working on some of this stuff. But, often it is better to leave good enough alone.

I just spend about 4 hours out in my shop tinkering with a dumb little Taurus 22 revolver, about the same as a kit gun. My mom gave it to me many years ago. It has a hard DA trigger. If you put in a lighter main spring it is iffy. I machined a longer firing pin from a drill bit, Still iffy, strongest J frame spring I have still iffy, put as much spacer as I could under the spring and stick cock it in SA, still iffy. Cleaned chambers recesses with reamer still iffy. LOL and I have a kit gun and a bunch of K22s. That little gun just bugs me because I don't get why it won't go bang every time. with out it having a 20# trigger pull.

 

[btvarner]

steelslaver, I know what you mean. I have spent the last couple of years working on a book about "Suicide Specials". Spent countless hours disassembling, conserving, and machining new parts. All because I wanted every suicide special I touched to be brought back to full functioning working order.

Does not make much sense to spend $1,500 in labor on a revolver that is only worth $300-$400 max. OCD is a problem.

 

[chief38]

I have encountered only a few very difficult to remove Cylinder Stops over the years. They were like that due to poor fitment and finish, poor tolerances and were a pain in the butt to remove. When they are too large and they are force in at the Factory they are very frustrating to get out. So far I've always been successful removing them, but here have been times it took more time than it should have. I have also either fit them properly or replaced them with proper fitting ones. Just be very careful not to bend the Stud. You don't want to have to repair that!

 

[btvarner]

Thanks chief38! I took the easy way out & left the stop in, working around it. Was still able to smooth the cylinder contact portion. Again, this is a new in the box example and did not "need" that part removed to complete the work, as the timing was perfect.

Here is an image of the revolver just before I put the side plate back on. Is now smooth as silk, lighter trigger pull, and no more factory trigger feel. Off to the range tomorrow to ensure it does what a gun is supposed to do........