Captain Crozier!

[Czechvar]

As you (and I) know, the Air Force does NOT have the same close-quarters contact and infection risks as hundreds of people stuck on an aircraft carrier.

That all depends on where you work. Aircraft Maintenance, Medical, Dental, Civil Engineering, Personnel, Supply, and several other career fields work in close proximity to each other and interface extensively with other career fields on Military Bases, Base Housing, and off base. And on the Golf Couse, you can't get a decent Tee Time without a Foursome...

There are many, many Headquarters buildings spread across dozens of installations. Every one of them is a densely populated cubicle city...forget social distancing there.

Quarters might be tighter on a ship, but the possibility of sharing germs is every bit as real. I've worked sick on the flight line many times right next to other people who were sick too.

So my question stands...Why is the Theodore Roosevelt the only Military entity we've heard this story from? Has the San Francisco Chronicle received complaints from other Commanders?

 

[AKtinman]

An article from the US Naval Institute:
Carrier Roosevelt CO Relieved Over 'Extremely Poor Judgment' in Creating 'Firestorm' Over COVID-19 Outbreak - USNI News

 

[muddocktor]

You know, Crozier being positive for the virus makes me wonder if how he felt physically also guided (or misguided, depending on what you think he did was wrong or not) his decision to send that letter out the way he did. You gotta figure that being infected with Covid 19 had to have been on his mind.

 

[Absalom]

Acting Navy secretary Thomas Modly has been very busy on various media getting his side of the story out.

The most comprehensive narrative I've read so far comes out of a lengthy interview Modly gave early this morning to David Ignatius of the Washington Post, one of the most respected national security correspondents. There are a lot of direct quotes and a clear explanation why things happened from Modly's point of view. You can google it; at least this afternoon it wasn't behind the subscriber wall.

After reading Modly's explanation, I don't think there are any bad guys in this whole scenario, just poor judgment, on the part of Capt. Crozier, but also Sec. Modly and other people in the handling of this.

The situation raises some disturbing larger questions which I'm not going to address because they would drift into politics.

 

[Onomea]

Here's the link to the WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ozier-panicking-before-trump-might-intervene/

Very much Modly's point of view, as Absalom notes. Crozier is not in a position to speak freely to the press to explain his point of view.

We'll likely find out more as time passes.

 

[ggibson511960]

We'll Never Know, and Shouldn't

Here's the link to the WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ozier-panicking-before-trump-might-intervene/

Very much Modly's point of view, as Absalom notes. Crozier is not in a position to speak freely to the press to explain his point of view.

We'll likely find out more as time passes.

Since when is anybody with an Internet connection supposed to know the readiness of a carrier battle group, war or no war? This guy's immediate supervisor was bunking on his deck. Wonder how he feels?? The military is not a college campus where expounding to the world is encouraged. What did Crozier accomplish? How much quicker did the TR dock in Guam? All this speculating about officer indifference and incompetence is disgusting. Crozier did the wrong thing and got relieved. It's called accountability and is a bit more severe in the military than an Ivy League school for a very good reason.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Well..the posts seem to be for AND against Capt Croziers action.

However, let me just say JOHN 15:13.

Seems like if he did know what he was doing then 15:13 applies.

It's kind of hard for me to believe that he would have delibertly sent a copy to that Calif newspaper...It appears more like someone else "Leaked" to the news paper. Did he send 20 copies or 30 copies? Just how many times did he send it out????

Reading from the quoted letter, he suposedly signed, I see no addressee, nor any mention of CC's being sent to anyone.

Checked with my S I L, a retired 06..A good commander does take care of his troops, in war and in peace. He puts them above himself.

A commander makes rank because he can make decisions, popular or not...They do not make command decisions just to be popular with their troops, nor to make decisions just to let those in lower ranks know how authorian (sp) they are.

Monday morning quarterbacking is not a luxury for them, or my S I L at the time.


WuzzFuzz

 

[soFlaNative]

Loose lips etc.
The lack of details with the inability to follow much in the way of news this week had me thinking this thread was about the HMS Terror.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Crozier and his Boss the Rear Admiral lived a couple of doors away from each other on the TR. They must have had a terrible personality conflict for Crozier to violate the most basic concepts of Operational Security.

I think there will be more fallout from this episode. The Rear Admiral might find his head on the chopping block too. I'd be surprised if a couple of demotions and forced retirements aren't on the table.

Who was this Rear Admiral on board? I find no reference there was even a Rear Admiral, let alone his boss, on board.

Surly with all this hoopla someone with such a rank on board would have come out by now.


WuzzFuzz

 

[sbrmike]

Being retired US Army, I know that the military has different protocols than other professions. He did the wrong thing for the right reason. He probably knew the ramifications going in. That said, he #1 bucked the chain of command (there are acceptable ways to do that, i.e. IG complaint, Congressional Investigation, and Commanders Open Door Policy. The bigger issue is #2. Loose Lips Sinks Ships he released readiness information openly. Yes he is to be admired but he also has to pay the price. I admire what he did, but do not feel sorry for him at all.

 

[NYlakesider]

Who was this Rear Admiral on board? I find no reference there was even a Rear Admiral, let alone his boss, on board.

Surly with all this hoopla someone with such a rank on board would have come out by now.


WuzzFuzz

This was mentioned on another forum (car) that I'm on. I cannot and will not vouch for the accuracy, but its worth a read!


"TR's Carrier Strike Group Commander, RDML Stuart Baker. RDML Baker did not know about the letter before it was sent to him via email by the CO. It is important to understand that the Strike Group Commander, the CO's immediate boss, is embarked on the Theodore Roosevelt, right down the passageway from him"

 

[Onomea]

...I admire what he did, but do not feel sorry for him at all.

That's an interesting take.. Something to think about.

From what I read, his boss, RDML Baker, was on board, a couple of cabins away. Crozier was asked why he did not show the letter to Baker before sending. Crozier said he did not because he believed Baker would prevent him from sending it. Baker subsequently commented along the lines of, "Damn right I would've."

From my reading, Crozier had tried to go through the chain of command, but in his judgement that was not working. So he took it outside the chain of command.

 

[Steve912]

It's kind of hard for me to believe that he would have delibertly sent a copy to that Calif newspaper...It appears more like someone else "Leaked" to the news paper. Did he send 20 copies or 30 copies? Just how many times did he send it out????

Reading from the quoted letter, he suposedly signed, I see no addressee, nor any mention of CC's being sent to anyone.

He shotgunned it by email. The copy we're seeing (if it's even
genuine) would have been an attachment to the emails, hence
no distribution addresses on the copy.

Haven't heard if he specifically sent a copy to media, or that
was done by one of the "20 or 30" (Modly quote) individuals
he did send it to.

A commander DOES have responsiblity for health, welfare,
morale and training of all subordinates. That follows,
however, mission accomplishment. And successful mission
accomplishment does require loyalty to the chain of command...

 

[Absalom]

.... And successful mission
accomplishment does require loyalty to the chain of command...

An interesting tidbit regarding respect for the chain of command:

Apparently, in the course of discussions with Capt. Crozier, Modly's chief of staff (a civilian) gave Crozier Modly's cell phone number and told him to call the Secretary directly if he felt that necessary. Afterwards, in his interviews, Modly criticized Crozier for not having done so.

But according to a Navy source, had Crozier indeed called Modly, bypassing the entire chain of uniforms, that would have been viewed by his superiors in the Navy as a breach of the chain of command probably worse than the letter.

 

[sbrmike]

The military open door policy means if your immediate supervisor doesn't give you satisfaction then you can jump to the next. You may pay for it (right or wrong), but it is available. Also Congressional Inquiries are handled swiftly in the military. He had other avenues to exhaust as far as my #1 earlier, but #2 is far greater with no excuse.

 

[Onomea]

Here's an editorial on the topic in Navy Times, written by a former assistant secretary of defense in the Reagan administration. It is supportive of Crozier.

In speaking truth to power, Captain Crozier made us proud

 

[old bear]

I've been lucky enough to meet/know a number of U.S. Military personal who by an act of congress were officers, sadly not all of them were Officers and Gentleman.

Captain Cozier appears to be both. The man understood what might happen when he sent his request. The Man was willing to trash his career to protect those he took an oath to lead and protect.

I doff my hat and bow my head to Captain Cozier.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

An interesting tidbit regarding respect for the chain of command:

Apparently, in the course of discussions with Capt. Crozier, Modly's chief of staff (a civilian) gave Crozier Modly's cell phone number and told him to call the Secretary directly if he felt that necessary. Afterwards, in his interviews, Modly criticized Crozier for not having done so.

But according to a Navy source, had Crozier indeed called Modly, bypassing the entire chain of uniforms, that would have been viewed by his superiors in the Navy as a breach of the chain of command probably worse than the letter.

So, from what you state, Capt Crozier did in fact notify someone higher up, and that Chief of Staff did nothing about it???? Capt Crozier had more than one conversation as you state "During the course of (PLURAL) Discussions

From reading that, the Chief of Staff only passed the buck, rather taking any action himself..Did the Chief of Staff notify his boss the Secretary??


Too many un-answered questions of who did what and when or even why.


WuzzFuzz

 

[Turq]

If I understand this correctly

So Crozier, with the interest of not wanting any of his crew to die unnecessarily, purposely sacrificed his career to bring attention to a life and death matter that was not being answered to his satisfaction. He was relieved because he didn't follow "proper channels" and protocols by the "acting" Secretary Modley. Who than thought going on the ships speaker system to call the former captain "stupid", was following proper channels and protocols.

"Acting U.S. Navy Secretary Thomas Modly, in a surprise speech aboard a coronavirus-stricken U.S. aircraft carrier, told the crew that their fired captain may have been "stupid,"

The only stupidity I see in this situation has come from Modley and above. I can guarantee the thousands of parents who sons and daughters serve on the TR agree with me.

Much respect for Captain Crozier.

 

[Onomea]

Here's a source for Modly's "stupid" comment delivered in a speech over the ship's PA system: Acting U.S. Navy chief says fired ship captain may have been 'stupid': officials - Reuters