Crozier hasn't been accused of "telling a newspaper" and the (now formerly) acting SecNav made clear in his statements the Navy doesn't think Crozier leaked to the press.
Captain Crozier!
- Thread starter JayFramer
- Start date
Bucking the C of C, or free lancing at work in the FD, would produce consequences, non good. As I was told when I got hired, we work as a unit and maintain discipline at all times, this is not a democracy and any and all discussions take place after the fact through the C of C.
You should have mentioned to leave politics out of it.
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pantannojack
US Veteran
What in heaven might have happened if the Captain, Crozier, had made a humorous video for the sake of morale?
UncleEd
Member
By golly, after reading a number of strict
"Chain of Command" advocates' postings,
I've come around.
In the cramped quarters of a warship, those
who signed up for military duty have to take
their lumps, or in this case, their virus. And
had some died, too dang bad.
But long live the strict interpretation of the
"Chain of Command."
"Chain of Command" advocates' postings,
I've come around.
In the cramped quarters of a warship, those
who signed up for military duty have to take
their lumps, or in this case, their virus. And
had some died, too dang bad.
But long live the strict interpretation of the
"Chain of Command."
It is strict and it should be. The military, any military would not last long if the chain of command did not exist and was not adhered to. Especially in times of war or other emergencies.
The chain of command exists to ensure discipline, order, and organization. Without it, what next?
But you knew that.
MCorps0311
US Veteran
In my mind the Captain is a HERO!....Salute
I believe when the facts come out, it is going to show that Crozier DID follow the chain of command. It's the only explanation that makes any sense. Who believes that he just unilaterally decided to write a bunch of emails about the perils of Covid aboard his ship, without first going up the chain of command? The problem is, the chain of command was too ....well to borrow a word form Modley "stupid", to realize the seriousness and urgency of the situation.
So you are Crozier what do you do? You went up the chain of command, your men, possibly many of them, are in danger of getting sick and dying. Your ship will be defenseless and useless without the men to man it.
Do you say "oh well I did my duty" and went up the chain of command? Or do you put the lives of your men and your ship first, and your career be damned?
Much respect for Crozier
So you are Crozier what do you do? You went up the chain of command, your men, possibly many of them, are in danger of getting sick and dying. Your ship will be defenseless and useless without the men to man it.
Do you say "oh well I did my duty" and went up the chain of command? Or do you put the lives of your men and your ship first, and your career be damned?
Much respect for Crozier
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As the saga of the firing of Capt Corzier comes to a end, a couple of things now come to mind.
1. Since Sec Modly was a civil servant, and he resigned, not fired, he will not get unemployment money.
.
2. McPherson, who has been appointed to succeed Modly, appears to have some very solid background for his new job.
(Lets hope the Navy can now sail some calm waters and fair skies.)....
WuzzFuzz
1. Since Sec Modly was a civil servant, and he resigned, not fired, he will not get unemployment money.
.2. McPherson, who has been appointed to succeed Modly, appears to have some very solid background for his new job.
(Lets hope the Navy can now sail some calm waters and fair skies.).
...WuzzFuzz
DWalt
Member
In any event, Modly (some reports spell it "Moldy") has resigned his position. From press accounts:
"Undersecretary of the Army James McPherson -- who served on the USS Theodore Roosevelt in the 1980s -- has been tapped to succeed Modly, Esper wrote. McPherson is a retired rear admiral and was the former judge advocate general of the Navy."
Loose lips sink ships (and Secretaries of the Navy)
"Undersecretary of the Army James McPherson -- who served on the USS Theodore Roosevelt in the 1980s -- has been tapped to succeed Modly, Esper wrote. McPherson is a retired rear admiral and was the former judge advocate general of the Navy."
Loose lips sink ships (and Secretaries of the Navy)
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An incredible number of soldiers died in the First World War "following the chain of command"
If leadership is incompetent,everybody is screwed
If leadership is incompetent,everybody is screwed
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As a final comment:
This isn't black and white. There is a vast gray area between indiscipline and chaos on the one hand, and blind obedience to procedure on the other.
The US military has always been a "citizens army". Let's not forget the militia part of the 2. Amendment. The Founding Fathers didn't actually like the idea of a professional military. That's why from the Revolution to WW I our military never amounted to much in international comparison; our biggest war, the Civil War, was largely fought by volunteers and later draftees. Even many generals, and not bad ones, were amateurs without military backgrounds; Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of Little Roundtop fame was a college professor.
In the 20th century, that was no longer practical, and now only a highly trained, professional military can guarantee our safety.
But what goes on in the military is still much more subject to public scrutiny than in other countries. I don't think that's necessarily bad. It can on occasion lead to embarrassing flaps like this, but it also prevents the military from becoming a power unto itself, or a tool of oppression like on some other continents.
In North Korea, both Crozier and Modly would probably have just been executed with anti-aircraft cannons. But there is actually no historical evidence that this kind of "discipline" translates into better performance on the battlefield; quite the opposite.
This isn't black and white. There is a vast gray area between indiscipline and chaos on the one hand, and blind obedience to procedure on the other.
The US military has always been a "citizens army". Let's not forget the militia part of the 2. Amendment. The Founding Fathers didn't actually like the idea of a professional military. That's why from the Revolution to WW I our military never amounted to much in international comparison; our biggest war, the Civil War, was largely fought by volunteers and later draftees. Even many generals, and not bad ones, were amateurs without military backgrounds; Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of Little Roundtop fame was a college professor.
In the 20th century, that was no longer practical, and now only a highly trained, professional military can guarantee our safety.
But what goes on in the military is still much more subject to public scrutiny than in other countries. I don't think that's necessarily bad. It can on occasion lead to embarrassing flaps like this, but it also prevents the military from becoming a power unto itself, or a tool of oppression like on some other continents.
In North Korea, both Crozier and Modly would probably have just been executed with anti-aircraft cannons. But there is actually no historical evidence that this kind of "discipline" translates into better performance on the battlefield; quite the opposite.
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I recall reading, probably 50 years ago, in Newsweek, the comments of a USAF officer who was training German fighter pilots. He commented along the lines of, "These German student pilots are amazing! They would fly right into a mountain behind me if that's where I flew! American student pilots would peel off."
The observation has stuck with me over the half century since. I think Japanese student pilots would behave the same as the Germans. Both countries, both cultures, have produced formidable soldiers.
But I like the fact that our culture imbues us with the belief that we are individuals, we have the right and the obligation to think for ourselves. Honor resides in standing up for what is right.
I have also been thinking, based on my decades of living in Japan, about how in a time of widespread crisis, like we have now with Covid-19, the social fabric in Japan is stronger than here. In Japan, the belief that what is best for the community is a higher value than what may be best for the individual. This "community first" is a good thing in widespread crisis. Like the 1911 earthquake, tsunami and nuclear reactor failure in Japan. Hoarding, for example, is pretty much universally discouraged. People wait their turn patiently, etc. (I was in Japan in 2011 and, for example, in NYC in the '70s when looting occurred during blackouts.)
It's been interesting to me to contemplate these cultural differences, and in what circumstances, in my opinion, they are respectively preferable
The observation has stuck with me over the half century since. I think Japanese student pilots would behave the same as the Germans. Both countries, both cultures, have produced formidable soldiers.
But I like the fact that our culture imbues us with the belief that we are individuals, we have the right and the obligation to think for ourselves. Honor resides in standing up for what is right.
I have also been thinking, based on my decades of living in Japan, about how in a time of widespread crisis, like we have now with Covid-19, the social fabric in Japan is stronger than here. In Japan, the belief that what is best for the community is a higher value than what may be best for the individual. This "community first" is a good thing in widespread crisis. Like the 1911 earthquake, tsunami and nuclear reactor failure in Japan. Hoarding, for example, is pretty much universally discouraged. People wait their turn patiently, etc. (I was in Japan in 2011 and, for example, in NYC in the '70s when looting occurred during blackouts.)
It's been interesting to me to contemplate these cultural differences, and in what circumstances, in my opinion, they are respectively preferable
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Walter Rego
Member
Crozier started this whole you-know-what-storm by his actions. The President doesn't need these unnecessary distractions, especially now. And without doubt, the press and the opposition party will use it as ammunition against the President from now until November.
Crozier exercised extremely poor judgement and Modly did as well by running his mouth the way he did.
As far as I am concerned they both need to pay a price.
Crozier exercised extremely poor judgement and Modly did as well by running his mouth the way he did.
As far as I am concerned they both need to pay a price.
I do not know your military background but the "Chain of Command" is extremely important and especially on an Aircraft carrier. But I think you are missing the main point. Crozier may have gone around the chain of command to another admirals or even to Sec Nav and might still have his command. His unforgivable "sin" was sending this letter on an unsecure network. The condition of that ship and men on the ship was classified. It was not for public knowledge...which equates to Russian knowledge, Iranian or Chinese knowledge. But his action made it that way in the un secure manner in which he communicated. That is why he was fired and justifiably so. The rest of the drama makes great press but is irrelevant.
Re chain of command concerns, please read post 98, the link to an article which says he did follow the chain of command.
The writer has more credibility on the topic than most:
Brett Odom is a 1992 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a graduate of Harvard Business School and the Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN). He served on active duty as a Naval Aviator flying the F/A-18 Hornet for 11 years, with multiple deployments at sea including combat operations in Operation Southern Watch and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Quoted from the link in Post 98
The writer has more credibility on the topic than most:
Brett Odom is a 1992 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a graduate of Harvard Business School and the Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN). He served on active duty as a Naval Aviator flying the F/A-18 Hornet for 11 years, with multiple deployments at sea including combat operations in Operation Southern Watch and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Quoted from the link in Post 98
YeshuaIsa53
Member
If I were China, I could sink an aircraft carrier. However, that would be the first shot of a nuclear war. Nobody wins. I doubt any of China's allies would get involved during the Covid-19 outbreak worldwide. Ground zero was China, and the whistleblower is dead. How did he die? We have only what was told us to believe. Isn't it like a strain of the SARS virus, possibly. Was someone testing it? Immediate crowd control. Worldwide. Not blaming anyone, but we just do not know and are quite ignorant if we believe everything we hear.
As with this, we do not know the entire story. We do not know the chain of command was not contacted time and again the proper way. We know what we are told. I feel sure the taking care of the situation just may have been hidden, due to combat readiness, had it been handled "properly". May be they took too long reacting? Who knows?
May be our crew was infected by reason of war by someone? Chain of command had a lot to think about. Seems he was asked to call the wrong people for a reason, but I don't know.
What chain of command told the civilian airlines to return home on 9-11?
It was done quite quickly, you know. Not quick enough, but I'd bet the person who made that decision or recommendation didn't have all the intel as fast as he could have. Most Americans were so much in shock, they did not know we were at war. Now we are training them here to fly again.
Bad situations deserve quick results. Maybe he picked the shortest toothpick, but forgive me for my failure at humor. If I knew that I knew all the truths, my pay raise would be forthcoming. I have to read between the lines to try and understand an intelligence community around the world, and there is a wealth of information there. I shall make no judgment call til I understand everything, as I am not privy to what I need to know. What happened, happened. Let's clean up the mess and move on.
As with this, we do not know the entire story. We do not know the chain of command was not contacted time and again the proper way. We know what we are told. I feel sure the taking care of the situation just may have been hidden, due to combat readiness, had it been handled "properly". May be they took too long reacting? Who knows?
May be our crew was infected by reason of war by someone? Chain of command had a lot to think about. Seems he was asked to call the wrong people for a reason, but I don't know.
What chain of command told the civilian airlines to return home on 9-11?
It was done quite quickly, you know. Not quick enough, but I'd bet the person who made that decision or recommendation didn't have all the intel as fast as he could have. Most Americans were so much in shock, they did not know we were at war. Now we are training them here to fly again.
Bad situations deserve quick results. Maybe he picked the shortest toothpick, but forgive me for my failure at humor. If I knew that I knew all the truths, my pay raise would be forthcoming. I have to read between the lines to try and understand an intelligence community around the world, and there is a wealth of information there. I shall make no judgment call til I understand everything, as I am not privy to what I need to know. What happened, happened. Let's clean up the mess and move on.
transit
Member
One of the things that bothers me is this: an audio of the SecNav addressing the crew aboard a U.S. Navy capital ship was leaked (-while speaking unprofessionally about the relieved Captain, perhaps...)
-but it was, 1. Recorded and 2. Leaked.
That makes me question the climate of discipline on that ship.
The whole thing comes across like a high school class recording a principal talking about a popular iconoclast teacher.
-but it was, 1. Recorded and 2. Leaked.
That makes me question the climate of discipline on that ship.
The whole thing comes across like a high school class recording a principal talking about a popular iconoclast teacher.
Scott in NCal
Member
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As for the chain of command, there are 4 levels of Admiral's between that Captian and The Secretary of the Navy. The Chain of Comand goes 2 ways. Why didn't the Secretary of the Navy follow the chain of command and have a Admiral deal with it ? I hope that Captain gets himself elected to congress
Jeff423
US Veteran
It was a dumb decision by the Sec. Nav. (Acting) to address and insult the captain and crew on the 1MC.
My personal feeling is that Crozier did what he had to do (because he wasn't getting much help from the Navy), and he has accept the consequences. I don't think he should be reinstated.
UncleEd
Member
He will if he wants it.
I've noticed quite a few ex-military are in Congress, Senate and
House, and I'm speaking of newer, younger members.
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