Careful out there...

walkinghorse said:
As long as we are going through another endless repetition thread, we should bring in bears, click-clack, windshields, my BIL, etc.
Maybe even a gorilla and friends before long?
Or another favorite emoticons or not ? 😑

Back to the OP, being careful, observant and avoidance is the name of the game !!!!!!
Click to expand...

Amen brother, some haters just got to hate..........:(
 
Muss Muggins said:
Yawn. Cite a source where that actually happened. You might be able to find one. It doesn't happen. Home defense scenarios, like LEO encounters, hardly ever involve racking a shotgun again or loading a second magazine. The incidents that do make the national news, about once every couple years. Carry a gun, always, decide if you should intervene, look for cover, and protect you and yours. The scenario you describe only happens in drug houses in Juarez.
Click to expand...


Every time we think we have all the answers someone changes the question.
Anyone who has spent any amount of time in law enforcement can site instances where shootings not only by police but also by civilians where a combatant took multiple rounds and continued to stay in the fight occurred. Every deadly force situation does not make national headlines or even the local news outside of a small geographic area.
If you are justified in using deadly force you need to use as much force as is necessary to eliminate the threat. When I first went on the job in 1968 we were just beginning to use the FBI Crouch technique and firing one or two rounds from our six shot revolvers then assessing the threat. When I retired in 2011 we were carrying high capacity semi autos and were training to fire two to three rounds and if the threat was not down and out than firing two to three more. Who is to say that in a civilian deadly force encounter the situation involving the attacker who could very well be under the influence of drugs or alcohol or mentally deranged or just high on adrenalin would be stopped by a single gunshot especially if that gunshot is not placed in a area of the central nervious system that would cause instant physical shutdown.
I pray that I will never have to use deadly force to protect my life or the lives of others however if I do I am prepared to use as much force as is needed to completely stop any aggressive action on the part of the attacker or attackers. The world has changed and force on force tactics have changed with it.
 
Last edited:
walkinghorse said:
As long as we are going through another endless repetition thread, we should bring in bears, click-clack, windshields, my BIL, etc.
Maybe even a gorilla and friends before long?
Or another favorite emoticons or not ? 😑

Back to the OP, being careful, observant and avoidance is the name of the game !!!!!!
Click to expand...

Isn't that what CC&SD is for? I mean, in addition to I'm-so-vigilant/prepared/well-armed/etc circle-of-backpat threads?

[quote="FlaRon]Who is to say that in a civilian deadly force encounter the situation involving the attacker who could very well be under the influence of drugs or alcohol or mentally deranged or just high on adrenalin would be stopped by a single gunshot especially if that gunshot is not placed in a area of the central nervious system that would cause instant physical shutdown.[/quote]

(1) If we were strictly playing the statistics, none of us would carry a gun. We also would not have homeowner's insurance. But we carry both as protection against catastrophic loss.

(2) I've said it before and I'll say it again--people want to be comforted by the idea that they've chosen "the best". Hence, you get endless discussions of the best cartridge, the best gun, the best place to poke holes in bad guys, etc. Because the alternative is accepting the possibility of a fight they can't win, which scares most people witless.

Where it runs off the rails is when you get into the realm of the hyper-technical and the tacticool, at the expense of fundamentals and basic skills. The sorts of things that nobody really wants to talk about anyway, because they're boring and forums are supposed to be fun. And besides, nobody really wants to admit they've never reloaded or shot under time or match pressure.
 
Muss Muggins said:
Yawn. Cite a source where that actually happened. You might be able to find one. It doesn't happen. Home defense scenarios, like LEO encounters, hardly ever involve racking a shotgun again or loading a second magazine. The incidents that do make the national news, about once every couple years. Carry a gun, always, decide if you should intervene, look for cover, and protect you and yours. The scenario you describe only happens in drug houses in Juarez.
Click to expand...
It happened to me and my partner. It didn't happen in Mexico. It happened in front of a yard in a residential area of Bexar County, Texas c.1975. The decision made was based on survival after the first shot took out the spot light and front windshield. What I said was the second rack I heard was later determined to actually be the third or more. (An unfired round was found later.) The actor's mishandling was probably what saved us both. I haven't given it much thought in over 40 years and now I'm sorry I did. (Distraught, not because of you.)

But you can keep getting your news and reality from the talking heads on TV. If you don't get enough, they'll make it up for you.
 
Tinhack said:
It happened to me and my partner. It didn't happen in Mexico. It happened in front of a yard in a residential area of Bexar County, Texas c.1975. The decision made was based on survival after the first shot took out the spot light and front windshield. What I said was the second rack I heard was later determined to actually be the third or more. (An unfired round was found later.) The actor's mishandling was probably what saved us both. I haven't given it much thought in over 40 years and now I'm sorry I did. (Distraught, not because of you.)

But you can keep getting your news and reality from the talking heads on TV. If you don't get enough, they'll make it up for you.
Click to expand...

Like I said, rare even for LEO's, and rarer still for the common homeowner . . .
 
FlaRon said:
Every time we think we have all the answers someone changes the question.
Anyone who has spent any amount of time in law enforcement can site instances where shootings not only by police but also by civilians where a combatant took multiple rounds and continued to stay in the fight occurred. Every deadly force situation does not make national headlines or even the local news outside of a small geographic area.
If you are justified in using deadly force you need to use as much force as is necessary to eliminate the threat. When I first went on the job in 1968 we were just beginning to use the FBI Crouch technique and firing one or two rounds from our six shot revolvers then assessing the threat. When I retired in 2011 we were carrying high capacity semi autos and were training to fire two to three rounds and if the threat was not down and out than firing two to three more. Who is to say that in a civilian deadly force encounter the situation involving the attacker who could very well be under the influence of drugs or alcohol or mentally deranged or just high on adrenalin would be stopped by a single gunshot especially if that gunshot is not placed in a area of the central nervious system that would cause instant physical shutdown.
I pray that I will never have to use deadly force to protect my life or the lives of others however if I do I am prepared to use as much force as is needed to completely stop any aggressive action on the part of the attacker or attackers. The world has changed and force on force tactics have changed with it.
Click to expand...

That is a very long way of saying that your goal is make the attacker decide that he/she has something better to do at the moment, such as lay down and stop shooting at you. Sometimes it takes more effort. I am well aware of multiple instances where an attacker continued to attack despite sustaining several gunshot wounds. Generally, the same dozen or so well documented cases appear in every LEO "street survival-esque" training video.
 
Muss Muggins said:
It may surprise you know that, statistically speaking, more people are killed with .22 LR than any other pistol caliber . . .
Click to expand...

While that is certainly true, but factor into that, that more .22s are fired than any other caliber, and also, .22lr are most people's first gun and they probably don't have much experience with firearms.
 
To address the OP's post, yes we must be prepared. Whether or not you carry a gun being prepared is a way of life. It never ends.

When discussing the use of force and it's application we need to remember that no two situations will ever be the same. Those in law enforcement know this better than anyone.

IMO, since no two situations are the same, the ability to be flexible and adapt quickly are extremely important. If a stern command doesn't change the bad guys channel then he may need to be shot. A split second decision needs to be made. After that decision is made, the ability to second guess that decision by others is easy and usually wrong. They weren't there. And they assume due to ignorance that every situation involving the use of force is the same. Again, they're wrong.

We need not put ourselves in the same position as those that got it wrong.
 
mrrick said:
While that is certainly true, but factor into that, that more .22s are fired than any other caliber, and also, .22lr are most people's first gun and they probably don't have much experience with firearms.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of the above, but those facts do not change the fact that the .22 LR is a lethal round . . .
 
In my county there were two accidental firearms deaths this summer--both by a single shot from a 22lr.

One was a national news story about a 14 year-old boy accidentally killed by his father at a local gun range with an SR22. The boy was sitting 3' behind the firing position. Coroner said the bullet entered the side of the neck at a downward angle and pierced an artery near the heart and lodged in the abdomen. The boy died from internal bleeding 1 hour later despite paramedics arriving quickly at the scene.

The other involved a man in his mid-50s who was found dead in his driveway and the coroner decided a .22 bullet lodged in his spine at the base of his skull was the cause of death. Police investigation found that the bullet traveled 2 city blocks from the backyard of a person who was target shooting with a .22 handgun and using a wooden fence as a backstop.

So I'd say the .22lr does not get the respect it deserves.
 
Made Me Cringe

garyez said:
In my county there were two accidental firearms deaths this summer--both by a single shot from a 22lr.

One was a national news story about a 14 year-old boy accidentally killed by his father at a local gun range with an SR22. The boy was sitting 3' behind the firing position. Coroner said the bullet entered the side of the neck at a downward angle and pierced an artery near the heart and lodged in the abdomen. The boy died from internal bleeding 1 hour later despite paramedics arriving quickly at the scene.

The other involved a man in his mid-50s who was found dead in his driveway and the coroner decided a .22 bullet lodged in his spine at the base of his skull was the cause of death. Police investigation found that the bullet traveled 2 city blocks from the backyard of a person who was target shooting with a .22 handgun and using a wooden fence as a backstop.

So I'd say the .22lr does not get the respect it deserves.
Click to expand...

gary: I just can't give your post the usual 'like' because I agree with your statement. But, Your illustrative story just made me cringe. The degree of stupidity and irresponsibility some people display in their use of ANY firearm continues to astound and alarm me. When I'm at home and hear what I think is the sound of a gunshot I jump up and race outside to try to establish what is going on. My wife berates me every time. I know firearms and what the potential damage can be. I want to know if the shot is repeated, where it is and if it was a 'drive by'. I want to know if there is anything that I can do about preventing another 'shot'. Of course 90% of the time what I heard was not the sound of a shot. I do not go outside on New Years or 4th of July night. .......
 
garyez said:
One was a national news story about a 14 year-old boy accidentally killed by his father at a local gun range with an SR22. The boy was sitting 3' behind the firing position. Coroner said the bullet entered the side of the neck at a downward angle and pierced an artery near the heart and lodged in the abdomen. The boy died from internal bleeding 1 hour later despite paramedics arriving quickly at the scene.
Click to expand...

Um...how did the boy get shot?
 
tug700 said:
Now I can tell you what happened to a friend of my doing rotations in ER. A gentleman walks in with a headache. Upon examination, an entry wound was found in the forehead and an exit wound in the back of the head.
Since the person was talking, BP normal, everything checks out fine; my friend releases him thinking the bullet followed the skull and exited without entering the brain cavity. Well, 4 hours later, the ambulance brought the same man in and he was in his final minutes. Autopsy shows a straight through the head wound.
Click to expand...
One of my neighbors kids tried to commit suicide a few years ago by shooting himself in the forehead with a 38 special and it pretty much and did the same thing. The bullet passed right down the center line of the brain an blew a silver dollar sized chunk of bone out the back of his skull. Two weeks later he was at home working a part-time job.
 
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