Carrying Concealed - And a Stranger goes for your weapon

[delcrossv]

Sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes the bug. I focus on just this type of scenario. It is deadly force situation, no doubt.
Right side is a Benchmade Infidel.
Left side is a striking implement.

Insert thumbs up smiley. If I'm carrying a firearm, my knife is on the weak side (usually an Infidel). You can get in a couple of gut strikes fairly easily while pressing down on on your gun's backstrap. That's "Plan A" anyway.

 

[LCC]

Someone starts to grab you under any circumstances, it is time to find out just how deep you can drive your thumb into their eye socket.

 

[Dougaz]

With this person behind you, take your right foot heel, slam it down on his right, inside calf and slide it down to his right side instep.

At the same time, slam your left elbow into his rib cage, while spinning around hard to a forward frontal position. Take your right hand and tightly grab the other guys right wrist and twist backward as hard as you can.

Your assailant will nor be on his back.

What you now elect to do with your concealed carry is up to you.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Thank you.
It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.

...

If you're going expose your flaws to a few million total strangers on the internet, you need to come with thick skin.

 

[biku324]

A concealed firearm is an excellent defense against deadly threats. Far fewer of us will face deadly threats ever than CCW daily, so you always need to decide about the risk/benefit tradeoff. Carrying openly and regularly makes you a target for anyone who needs your firearm (it's harder than you think for felons to get one) and also limits your options in ordinary troubles or situations. The same is true for CCW if the firearm is not truly concealed, both physically and through keeping your mouth shut about it. I fear too many folks want to be known as armed without thinking through the value of no one but you knowing about your firearm.

Risk/benefit.

 

[old tanker]

Let's not overlook one basic fact, the bad guy has the initiative. He chooses the victim, the time, the place, the method of attack.

Any response we are generally permitted to have is reactive. At some point, some distance, some amount of time there is nothing you can do to counter an attack once it starts. Until we get to a point where you can just open up on the "bad guys" when you see'em, the best you can hope for is they will tip their hand in time for you to react.

 

[Fastbolt]

... Often there are a number of "dubious" characters around and over time I knew most of them by name. Most were hardworking but some were real troublemakers with some serious problems in their background.

One day I was at the location when one of the guys I had seen there before and knew a bit about his violent background, approached me to talk about what I do. Because I had talked to him at least a dozen times before, I wasn't on full alert. It seemed friendly and harmless, until out of the clear blue, he lunged at me and put his arms around my waist OBVIOUSLY feeling for a weapon....

Your comments (as quoted above) seem to infer that you knew, even if unconsciously, the exact cause of your subsequent problem that day and your feelings of discomfort and concern.

If he felt confident he could approach that close and grasp you, he might've assessed your potential as being less of a possible threat to him better than you'd assessed him as being a possible threat to you ... even with you already knowing "a bit about his violent background".

Consider that close to 95% of all human communication (in person) occurs via body language and demeanor. Perhaps you weren't reading him as well as he was reading you. Or, your body language and demeanor was telling him things about you, and what you'd (unwillingly) "allow" him to do, and you just didn't realize what your manner was revealing about yourself.

Granted, I offer these comments after having entered my 49th year of my martial arts pursuits, and after having carried a badge for 34 years (active and then reserve, after retirement). The combination of those things gives me what I feel is at least a passing familiarity of the potential threats that may be presented by others, under a variety of circumstances, and having learned how to detect danger by the body language, demeanor, etc, of others, at least to some practical degree.

I've been told that while I've successfully "toned down" my physical presence and alert manner since retirement, that some folks still feel "something" about how I carry myself in everyday contact with folks, no matter how I may smile or act friendly and relaxed. As long as it may still give predators/predatory people pause, and hopefully induce them to avoid "targeting" me, I'm content. Do I "trust" that it will? Obviously not. Predators are predators, and given the opportunity will likely continue to willfully prey on others. Not all of them may have a well developed sense of self preservation, either, or they simply ignore it in favor of pursuing their violent nature. Go figure.

Sometimes when some "average, law-abiding" folks may carry a gun on their person as a lawful self defense weapon, even though it may provide them with a sense of comfort, it may turn out that they're more or less carrying it around until it may be taken from them by someone else of violent criminal intent ... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".

It is what it is ... and who has ever intimated the world is a safe place?

No reason to walk around "on edge", though, or giving the dog eye to each and every person. Overall, unreasoning paranoia is never a good look.

Consider the difference between a bare fear and a reasonable fear, and how the former may be problematic compared to the latter, and then add a pinch of common sense and prudence.

 

[SAFireman]

... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".

I have seen this in person. It didn't end well for the prankster. He ended up eating through a straw for 6 weeks.

I believe a citizen who carries has a duty to maintain control of their firearm. Personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that says "If he is trying to take away my gun, he means me serious bodily injury or death, react accordingly".

I am prepared do to what is necessary to go home to my family at the end of the day/shift, and will make every effort to do that regardless or the consequences to the offender.

This is not a time for warm & fuzzy feelings. Act decisively and quickly to stop the threat.

And for what it is worth - A lot of LE agencies consider an attempt to disarm an officer a deadly force event, and use of deadly force to end the attack is authorized/permitted. I would imagine that they would view it the same way for a citizen.

 

[Smoke]

It's not difficult to tell who the professionals are here.

Not difficult to tell who isn't a professional either.

 

[Kurusu]

Not difficult to tell who isn't a professional either.

I would add. The OP should look up the meaning of the word "ambush". This may sound pedantic, English being only my third language, but now that he has disclosed what happened. I can guarantee that he was not "ambushed".

I'm out.

 

[Echo40]

I've been simultaneously gifted and yet cursed by my unsettling appearance which tends to prevent most folks from even making eye contact with me, much less engaging me in conversation.

I stand 6 feet tall, I'm something of an amateur bodybuilder, and a potent combination of a traumatic life coupled with a few unfortunate accidents have left me with a numerous facial scars, a lazy eye, crooked/jagged teeth, a permanent thousand-yard-stare, and very few reasons to smile. Underneath my external appearance, I'm really not a bad guy, but the way I look has dissuaded folks good and bad from interacting with me, and those who have tend to be further dissuaded by my eccentric behavior and offputting PTSD symptoms. One of said symptoms lies in the utter inability to drop my guard, so I'm always instinctively on the lookout for danger.
If all else fails, I carry a BUG and a knife, so anyone who attempt to grab my gun is liable to receive any number of serious injuries for their efforts.

That being said, it's important to note that most thieves are looking for an easy target, so for most folks, simply looking like the sort of person is typically enough to dissuade your average would-be mugger. Even so much as trying to swipe someone else's weapon requires nerves, desperation, or a degree of recklessness which is not characteristic of your average thug.

For everything else, strength, courage, and vigilance should suffice. The best way to avoid becoming a victim is refusing to be one. Never surrender, don't go down without a fight, and should you ever become a victim despite your best efforts, don't ever adopt that label, because that's not what you are nor who you are, you are a survivor and what can't kill you only makes you one mean son of a gun.

 

[WR Moore]

Thank you.

I think I may get a partner and a synthetic practice handgun and practice stopping a disarm attempt.

I don't recall who makes them, but the aluminum practice guns don't break. The synthetic ones have been known to under the stress put on them. This is more a problem in disarming than in retention, but there have been injuries. Unless the synthetics now have metal reinforcement, been awhile.

Or, you could both wear gloves.

FWIW, I found the Lindell system better than whatever S&W Academy was teaching back when. Can't recall the name right now. Added: PPCT, the gray cells still work, they just take longer.

 

[Muss Muggins]

All the bravado aside . . .

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjJQu6lUZtQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjJQu6lUZtQ[/ame]

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I have seen this in person. It didn't end well for the prankster. He ended up eating through a straw for 6 weeks.

I believe a citizen who carries has a duty to maintain control of their firearm. Personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that says "If he is trying to take away my gun, he means me serious bodily injury or death, react accordingly".

I am prepared do to what is necessary to go home to my family at the end of the day/shift, and will make every effort to do that regardless or the consequences to the offender.

This is not a time for warm & fuzzy feelings. Act decisively and quickly to stop the threat.

And for what it is worth - A lot of LE agencies consider an attempt to disarm an officer a deadly force event, and use of deadly force to end the attack is authorized/permitted. I would imagine that they would view it the same way for a citizen.

If you don't mind, this surely made the news, would you mind providing a link to the source or some info so I can look it up?

I would like to read more about this case.

Thanks

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I would add. The OP should look up the meaning of the word "ambush". This may sound pedantic, English being only my third language, but now that he has disclosed what happened. I can guarantee that he was not "ambushed".

I'm out.

Here's the definition I found.....

According to this, this definitely was an "Ambush"
He was "hiding" in plain sight.

An ambush is a sneak attack. To ambush your enemy, hide and wait for him to come near and then pounce on him. ... Ambush comes from a Latin word meaning "to place in a wood," and hiding in the woods behind a tree is a classic starting point for an ambush.

But is this really that important?
It seems to me whatever it was, the situation was more important than what I called it. Just my opinion.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

Your comments (as quoted above) seem to infer that you knew, even if unconsciously, the exact cause of your subsequent problem that day and your feelings of discomfort and concern.

I would say that I knew he had the potential for bad moves, but given months of talking to him and having quite a few conversations with him, it's possible I missed the psychosis.
Lesson learned.

If he felt confident he could approach that close and grasp you, he might've assessed your potential as being less of a possible threat to him better than you'd assessed him as being a possible threat to you ... even with you already knowing "a bit about his violent background".

Possibly.
We weren't exactly strangers. I think he mainly did it to be 'Macho". He didn't get violent after not finding my gun.
To be honest, since I wasn't carrying, I wasn't sure what the hell he was doing until I left. Then it dawned on me.

I do believe that had I been carrying that day, his lunge towards me would have been perceived differently and responded to differently.

This has never happened before or since, and I don't intend to allow a situation like that again. But I would guess that some of the members of this forum will personally experience similar situations or worse. But VERY FEW will ever post it here. (for good reason)

Someone mentioned that maybe I bragged of carrying and that's not the case. I think he noticed it because it was summer and I may have been printing unwittingly.

Consider that close to 95% of all human communication (in person) occurs via body language and demeanor. Perhaps you weren't reading him as well as he was reading you. Or, your body language and demeanor was telling him things about you, and what you'd (unwillingly) "allow" him to do, and you just didn't realize what your manner was revealing about yourself.

Or perhaps he was on drugs that day or drinking or a host of possibilities. Who knows? There are a lot of drugged out crazed people out there. He probably worked as a bouncer or in some capacity where he was used to physical confrontation and more comfortable with it than most people. This happened a while back and I can't recall all his details now.
Hard to say. I would say that I'm about as menacing as the average guy. Neither wimpy looking nor fierce looking.

Granted, I offer these comments after having entered my 49th year of my martial arts pursuits, and after having carried a badge for 34 years (active and then reserve, after retirement). The combination of those things gives me what I feel is at least a passing familiarity of the potential threats that may be presented by others, under a variety of circumstances, and having learned how to detect danger by the body language, demeanor, etc, of others, at least to some practical degree.

You certainly have a lot more experience than I do. Maybe more than most here. I'm a life member of the international TaeKwonDo Federation and I've competed in tournaments.
But that was a while back. I wouldn't say I'm a "tough" guy per se, but I would most definitely say I'm not the easiest adversary.

I've been told that while I've successfully "toned down" my physical presence and alert manner since retirement, that some folks still feel "something" about how I carry myself in everyday contact with folks, no matter how I may smile or act friendly and relaxed. As long as it may still give predators/predatory people pause, and hopefully induce them to avoid "targeting" me, I'm content. Do I "trust" that it will? Obviously not. Predators are predators, and given the opportunity will likely continue to willfully prey on others. Not all of them may have a well developed sense of self preservation, either, or they simply ignore it in favor of pursuing their violent nature. Go figure.

Absolutely. In spite of this one lapse, I would say this sounds like me.

Sometimes when some "average, law-abiding" folks may carry a gun on their person as a lawful self defense weapon, even though it may provide them with a sense of comfort, it may turn out that they're more of less carrying it around until it may be taken from them by someone else of violent criminal intent ... or some idiot who may think that disarming someone qualifies as a "joke".

It is what it is ... and who has ever intimated the world is a safe place?

I think this is more truthful than most people realize.
I'm somewhat surprised we don't see this more often.
We have a lot of MS13 and other violent offenders coming up from South America and Mexico....not to mention home brewed evil. I have a feeling we are going to be hearing more of this in the future.

I prefer to always have a gun in the car when I'm in it and at home. But I don't carry all the time. Like you say, no matter how big and bad you may be, there is always someone bigger and badder or working in groups that can ambush or surprise attack you..

No reason to walk around "on edge", though, or giving the dog eye to each and every person. Overall, unreasoning paranoia is never a good look.

Consider the difference between a bare fear and a reasonable fear, and how the former may be problematic compared to the latter, and then add a pinch of common sense and prudence.

Agreed. Thanks. Good read.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I don't recall who makes them, but the aluminum practice guns don't break. The synthetic ones have been known to under the stress put on them. This is more a problem in disarming than in retention, but there have been injuries. Unless the synthetics now have metal reinforcement, been awhile.

Or, you could both wear gloves.

FWIW, I found the Lindell system better than whatever S&W Academy was teaching back when. Can't recall the name right now.

I have a simulated Glock arriving Saturday.
Thanks

 

[Smoke]

I wouldn't say I'm a "tough" guy per se, but I would most definitely say I'm not the easiest adversary.

I would suspect that the guy who was able to put his hands on you and have you completely under his control with zero resistance on your part would disagree.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

I would suspect that the guy who was able to put his hands on you and have you completely under his control with zero resistance on your part would disagree.

"Completely under his control"
Yeah, you have a very active imagination.
ok.

But just know that you are not like him and would never be able to do what he did and that he would have yours as well

How do I know this? Your need to keep making these silly, unnecessary remarks proves you are weak.

That said, if you are severely handicapped in any way then maybe not weakness, but fear. You list yourself as a veteran. If you are a wounded warrior then I understand your frustration.

 

[Fastbolt]

Situational context and the totality of the circumstances would have to be known in order to try and reasonably determine whether he was just a bully who enjoyed being able to push you around ... or someone who would've taken sudden advantage of the situation by taking your weapon, just to take it (because he wanted to, and could), or whether he would've used it on you.

Why would he have wanted to use it on you, though? Why did he just grab you and momentarily immobilize you if he'd actually intended to cause you serious bodily injury or death, only to then take your gun and cause you serious bodily injury or death by using your weapon on you?

Why not just come up to you and seriously hurt you without warning, to try and disable you from being able to access a gun if he suspected you might be wearing one (and he wanted it)? He'd demonstrated that he could put you at a serious disadvantage... but he didn't. Maybe he might have done so if he'd felt the outline of a gun?

Well, that didn't happen, so it's only speculation to try and ponder what didn't happen, and why it didn't happen. Perhaps this fellow just liked being a bully and throwing his weight around to cause people fear or shame, when he thought he could get away with it? Having likely become a little familiar with you over the time involved, he apparently sized you up and decided he could do what he did with impunity, or prevent you from effectively resisting. It seems he might not have been wrong, either way.

On the other hand, from your descriptions it doesn't sound like he intended you seriously bodily harm or death, so considering a response involving deadly force would've likely been unlawful, and gotten you in trouble. Or, he might've even used greater force and claimed self defense against your presentation of a gun, and that might've worked out for him if the police had responded.

While it's laudable and prudent to consider how to physically retain possession and control of your gun, you still need to be mindful of the laws involving the use of deadly force in your state (as well as the threatened use of it, brandishing, etc) before you find yourself in a situation where you decide to use it against somebody.

Perhaps you might explore the options for non-LE training in the laws of your state, and/or investing in reading up on general discussions of the topic. Mas Ayoob has written some helpful books, as have some other experienced authorities on the topic (some of whom are active or retired cops, and some others attorneys). Ignorance of the laws can result in some mistakes of judgment.

Now, I'm merely another member of the general public at this point, no longer being a peace officer (for my state). I'm not an attorney, either, so I certainly cannot presume to offer legal advice. (You can go buy some, though. )

Not sure what "lessons" you may feel you've gleaned from that previous incident, but firearms retention may not be as high on a list or priorities - if I were in your place - as you seem to wish it to be.

Your call, though. Not my business, other than engaging in polite (non-expert) conversation on some internet forum. I don't presume to have any answers. I wasn't there.

Best regards.