Carrying Concealed - And a Stranger goes for your weapon

[ArmednDangerous]

Situational context and the totality of the circumstances would have to be known in order to try and reasonably determine whether he was just a bully who enjoyed being able to push you around ... or someone who would've taken sudden advantage of the situation by taking your weapon, just to take it (because he wanted to, and could), or whether he would've used it on you.

Why would he have wanted to use it on you, though? Why did he just grab you and momentarily immobilize you if he'd actually intended to cause you serious bodily injury or death, only to then take your gun and cause you serious bodily injury or death by using your weapon on you?

Why not just come up to you and seriously hurt you without warning, to try and disable you from being able to access a gun if he suspected you might be wearing one (and he wanted it)? He'd demonstrated that he could put you at a serious disadvantage... but he didn't. Maybe he might have done so if he'd felt the outline of a gun?

Well, that didn't happen, so it's only speculation to try and ponder what didn't happen, and why it didn't happen. Perhaps this fellow just liked being a bully and throwing his weight around to cause people fear or shame, when he thought he could get away with it? Having likely become a little familiar with you over the time involved, he apparently sized you up and decided he could do what he did with impunity, or prevent you from effectively resisting. It seems he might not have been wrong, either way.

On the other hand, from your descriptions it doesn't sound like he intended you seriously bodily harm or death, so considering a response involving deadly force would've likely been unlawful, and gotten you in trouble. Or, he might've even used greater force and claimed self defense against your presentation of a gun, and that might've worked out for him if the police had responded.

While it's laudable and prudent to consider how to physically retain possession and control of your gun, you still need to be mindful of the laws involving the use of deadly force in your state (as well as the threatened use of it, brandishing, etc) before you find yourself in a situation where you decide to use it against somebody.

Perhaps you might explore the options for non-LE training in the laws of your state, and/or investing in reading up on general discussions of the topic. Mas Ayoob has written some helpful books, as have some other experienced authorities on the topic (some of whom are active or retired cops, and some others attorneys). Ignorance of the laws can result in some mistakes of judgment.

Now, I'm merely another member of the general public at this point, no longer being a peace officer (for my state). I'm not an attorney, either, so I certainly cannot presume to offer legal advice. (You can go buy some, though. )

Not sure what "lessons" you may feel you've gleaned from that previous incident, but firearms retention may not be as high on a list or priorities - if I were in your place - as you seem to wish it to be.

Your call, though. Not my business, other than engaging in polite (non-expert) conversation on some internet forum. I don't presume to have any answers. I wasn't there.

Best regards.

Good information. Thanks.

The entire incident took less than 2 seconds. maybe 1.5 seconds.

As mentioned, since I was NOT carrying at that time, I didn't really realize what he was doing until after the fact. It's like if someone felt your lower leg in less than 2 seconds and you had nothing there, you might wonder what the heck they are doing.
I would imagine the normal human response is a few seconds of confusion. I guess depending on the person and situation an instant counterattack might be the way to go.

It's like you're talking to someone and they suddenly reach around your waist then move back. LESS than 2 seconds.
You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted. since I had had many discussions with him it was not expected. And in the instant, a bit confusing.

It would be like someone saying you let your guard down and invited the attack, if someone sucker punched you from behind.

I'm not sure that if I was carrying that day that I could have reacted that fast. it was super quick. But I believe that if I had been carrying I would have perceived his move as much more threatening.

Because of this incident, I will likely be more prone to instantly counter attack if anything like this happens again. However it still requires careful attention because if you attack someone erroneously the consequences could be serious. Do you shoot, slice up or attack full on every time someone touches you? No.
Unless you like small cells. Every situation can be different.

Anyway, good feedback.

 

[Fastbolt]

Good information. Thanks.

The entire incident took less than 2 seconds. maybe 1.5 seconds.

As mentioned, since I was NOT carrying at that time, I didn't really realize what he was doing until after the fact.

You still don't know his intention for having done it. Not unless you asked him and he happened to be honest about it. You're speculating.

However, you (hopefully) learned how quickly someone could put you at a position of physical disadvantage. Unfortunately, this can also put you at a position of disadvantage in grasping and understanding motive, and that chews up more time (OODA Loop stuff).

I would imagine the normal human response is a few seconds of confusion. I guess depending on the person and situation an instant counterattack might be the way to go.

Lots of room to speculate about "normal human response". Situational context comes into play.

It's like you're talking to someone and they suddenly reach around your waist then move back. LESS than 2 seconds.
You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted. since I had had many discussions with him it was not expected. And in the instant, a bit confusing.

Confusion when confronted by the unexpected isn't unusual. You didn't expect it, and it rather seems that you may not have given any thought to your range of potential options should it happen in that situation, or in variations on a theme.

Granted, anybody can be sandbagged. There's a wide difference between oblivious (with some naivety?) and being tensely paranoid and startled by anything done by each and every person you meet, though. Strive for the optimal balance of awareness and alertness in your life and daily activities.

I'm not a "hugging" person, nor someone who encourages close approach and proximity to my person by others. I also don't like it when someone directly approaches me from behind, or lingers standing very close behind me (especially if they're facing toward me, etc). I'll move and shift to change the dynamics of the situation, but without telegraphing anything resembling a "threat" to them. Why would I? Maybe they're simply being inattentive, or they're naturally (or culturally) inclined to be comfortable with a much closer social distancing space. (Except for now, of course, during this covid concern.)

The "You can certainly attack them at that point if you feel it warranted" comment leaves worlds to think about. Consider getting some training or education in how the law works in such matters. (I already mention the significant legal difference to be considered between claiming a bare fear versus a reasonable fear? It's not just a catchy slogan.)

The number of discussions you may have with someone may influence you to lower your "trust" needle, even though you knew about his "violent" background. It wouldn't me, but that's me. That said, that certainly does not mean I'd automatically resort to an excessive (unreasonable and unjustified) amount of force if merely surprised by someone getting too close, nor even attempting to grasp me in a bear hug. Totality of circumstances. Was he making verbal threats? Has he commented that he might take There's a lot that can be done to prevent and dissuade someone from doing that, which you've possibly seen or learned with your karate background.

...But I believe that if I had been carrying I would have perceived his move as much more threatening.

Why?

What else was involved that might've reasonably communicated an intention on his part to cause you serious bodily injury or death. With or without your gun? Why couldn't he simply have been a bully or meathead who liked to intimidate people?

For all you know, he might've turned out to have been shocked to suddenly feel a gun belted around your waist, and might've been concerned that you might over react to a stupid rude stunt on his part.

When it comes right down to it, what can you actually articulate that would make a reasonable person believe he was checking you for a gun? Sure, someone carrying a gun that feel that suspicion, or at least wonder about it. But was it present on his part?

Because of this incident, I will likely be more prone to instantly counter attack if anything like this happens again. However it still requires careful attention because if you attack someone erroneously the consequences could be serious. ...

Careful attention if you "attack someone erroneously"? That's putting it charitably. Perhaps consider becoming a bit more aware to the potential for someone to deliberately put you in a position of physical disadvantage? But not to the point of being scared and paranoid and being unable to use good judgment to make a response, if indeed a physical response is appropriate, but that's also not unwarranted, unnecessary and unreasonable ... and unjustified (hence, unlawful)?

Have you ever had the opportunity to take some short training class/course, especially as part of concealed carry firearms training, which involves educating you about the local laws of your state and how they're commonly enforced? Might be a good place to start. There's (unfortunately) no shortage of people who have been sentenced to county jails and state prisons after making mistakes of judgment in the use of force, and were shocked to suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the law when police and the courts started sorting things out.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

You still don't know his intention for having done it. Not unless you asked him and he happened to be honest about it. You're speculating.

in retrospect, there is the possibility that you are correct.
I never asked him to confirm that he was feeling for my handgun.

In fact, we had been talking amicably for about 1/2 an hour when he did it.

My conclusion was that it was the only thing he could have been doing.

Fortunately, I will never know what would have happened had I been carrying that day but if I am carrying and someone grabs for my gun I have no choice but to fight.

Even so, if IN COURT (after the big fight) the guy claims he was only trying to flick a bee off my waist, then in Arizona for example, I could face a mandatory 5 - 15 years in prison.

Self defense is not as easy as just "gouging someones eyes out" simply because they touch you inappropriately.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

There are a number of posts here that say I was weak, failed to act etc where the poster said the guy in my scenario would have been shot or physically attacked if it had happened to them.

I think everyone who said that would do well to watch this Lawyer and his advice on Gun use. Extremely informative video.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaBu2aH_fB0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaBu2aH_fB0[/ame]

 

[Smoke]

There's a difference between choosing not to react because legalities are in question and not being able to react because you got caught short.

The first time something like this happened to me I learned two very valuable lessons. First yes, it can happen to you. The second being regardless of what you hear on the internet, bad guys are NOT afraid of you. They don't generally think you have the testicular fortitude to do anything anyway unless you SHOW them different.

Now I realize that my circumstances are a little different. By its very nature, my job involves confrontations with people but I don't hang around for 30 minutes talking amicably with sociopaths. I conduct my business and I move on to the next thing.

I can't remember the last time I left my house unarmed. It's simply not something I do, so there isn't going to be a day where it's okay for you to grab me because I don't have a gun anyway.

It doesn't matter if I know you or not if you put your hands on me like that unexpectedly you're going to get a reaction and it's going to be a reaction is assumes that you are intending to do me harm, that's how I was trained and that's what my experience dictates.

I am going to suggest again (and for the last time) that the OP get some actual, professional, training with an emphasis on MUC, weapons retention and Force on Force. Otherwise, as has already been suggested by another poster, he is simply holding his gun for whoever ends up taking it from him.

Having said that, you all enjoy your discussion

 

[Mister X]

Unless you live an extremely restricted life, people will get close to you. Having some H2H and weapon retention skills is a good idea. Reading an article, watching a video or attending a single class won't be much help though. Unless you're really physically gifted, you'll likely need to study and practice a fair amount to be able to actually apply them, but anything is better than nothing. Some actual situational and environmental awareness and managing unknown contacts study is appropriate as well.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Videos aren't the be-all, end-all, but they can help. At my age, I'm not looking for a 100% solution to every possible problem. Just some simple tools to help get an edge.

I like this guys videos. Straight forward. Simple techniques.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag4HyPfghkA"]In Holster Retention[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_RQe_F390"]In Hand Retention[/ame]

 

[Fastbolt]

Before I retired I was required to attend an in-service defensive tactics class as part of the usual training cycle. I'd not been required to go through that particular training for some years. I naturally knew the instructor, who was good.

At one point the class involved a weapon retention technique (belt-holstered duty weapon), demonstrating a technique to try and maintain control of the weapon, attempting to deny access and control of it to someone forcefully attempting to wrest it from the holster of the "defending officer".

The "attacker" with whom I was paired was approx 10+/- years younger, several inches taller and had about 40-50 pounds on me (not hanging around his waist, either). Let's just say that he was physically "capable".

As soon as he grabbed at my simulated holstered weapon, I poked him (not hard, and intentionally not causing any injury). He couldn't jerk back his upper body, back-pedal and get away from me fast enough. His hands had quickly flown away from my simulated weapon. The instructor just smiled and shook his head, and reminded me that they were teaching the new people different denial of weapon tactics nowadays.

 

[flagman1776]

I remember working a crowd control detail and having a civilian bump into my back on purpose to confirm I was wearing my Second Chance vest. I really pissed me off.

 

[Muss Muggins]

No cop or CCW holder has ever lost his pistol by somebody standing an arms length away and extending one arm or the other to grab his pistol. It's sad that these videos are so unrealistic . . .

Videos aren't the be-all, end-all, but they can help. At my age, I'm not looking for a 100% solution to every possible problem. Just some simple tools to help get an edge.

I like this guys videos. Straight forward. Simple techniques.

In Holster Retention

In Hand Retention

 

[Fastbolt]

Just FWIW ...

According the FBI's LEOKA stats (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted), from 2010-2019 (inclusive) there were 511 cops feloniously killed.

491 were killed with a weapon other than their own, and 20 were killed with their own firearms. Lots of tables and distilled data that can be viewed. You can even find the number of victim cops who attempted to use their weapons, how many (average) rounds were fired by those were were able to fire them, number of rounds (averaged) fired by assisting officers and even the number of rounds fired (averaged) by the offenders, if you want to browse among the tables.

In other parts of the reports you can get summaries of the incidents. (Search by state)

FBI — Officers Feloniously Killed

FBI — Summaries: Officers Feloniously Killed

 

[Ziggy2525]

No cop or CCW holder has ever lost his pistol by somebody standing an arms length away and extending one arm or the other to grab his pistol. It's sad that these videos are so unrealistic . . .

Did you actually watch the video or did you just respond. The reason I ask is because he says the same thing.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I watched it. Trying to keep others from wasting their time.

Did you actually watch the video or did you just respond. The reason I ask is because he says the same thing.

 

[ArmednDangerous]

Before I retired I was required to attend an in-service defensive tactics class as part of the usual training cycle. I'd not been required to go through that particular training for some years. I naturally knew the instructor, who was good.

At one point the class involved a weapon retention technique (belt-holstered duty weapon), demonstrating a technique to try and maintain control of the weapon, attempting to deny access and control of it to someone forcefully attempting to wrest it from the holster of the "defending officer".

The "attacker" with whom I was paired was approx 10+/- years younger, several inches taller and had about 40-50 pounds on me (not hanging around his waist, either). Let's just say that he was physically "capable".

As soon as he grabbed at my simulated holstered weapon, I poked him (not hard, and intentionally not causing any injury). He couldn't jerk back his upper body, back-pedal and get away from me fast enough. His hands had quickly flown away from my simulated weapon. The instructor just smiled and shook his head, and reminded me that they were teaching the new people different denial of weapon tactics nowadays.

What exactly do you mean by "Poked him" ?

 

[Fastbolt]

What exactly do you mean by "Poked him" ?

I deliberately worded it in that vague manner. This isn't a "how to" martial arts self defense or defensive tactics forum, nor am I your martial arts teacher, coach, sifu, etc.

Depending on your own length of study, practice and degree of accomplishment in a martial art, you might have already learned how to apply various strikes to different anatomical areas, their effects and how to exert the force involved to avoid causing serious injury (to the degree possible for the extent of the threat and totality of the circumstances), while still achieving your desired result.

If not, consider reapplying yourself to the study of a martial art again.

FWIW, when that afternoon class of DT was held, they also included a technique for "disarming" an attacker who was pointing a gun at the defending cop. I thought that was interesting.

I used a different disarming technique in that, too. One that took my (same) "attacker" right down to his knees and made him relinquish the weapon, while putting the muzzle offline to myself. More or less the same response from the guy teaching the DT class. The "attacker" wanted nothing to do with trying to point the gun at me, or maintain possession of it, and the instructor reminded me that we were teaching ... gentler? ... different methods of dealing with such things.

Well, I have a strong dislike and aversion to people threatening me with weapons, and especially guns. The "attacker" was uninjured, and I was no longer being threatened. I don't think it even would've looked "bad" on camera, or if viewed by bystanders. Then again, since I'd repeatedly turned down the position of head DT instructor for one of the divisions some years prior (and caught some minor, but not career-ending, flak for it up the chain of command), I can't really offer any criticism of what the program became when other people became involved. Just one of those things.

 

[Bumpus13]

LOL ... Thread did not go as OP intended.


I'm wondering why in the world anyone would feel comfortable letting someone outside of their household get within 6 feet of them these days anyway. I mean, this virus ain't finished being a threat yet.

 

[moralem]

LOL ... Thread did not go as OP intended.


I'm wondering why in the world anyone would feel comfortable letting someone outside of their household get within 6 feet of them these days anyway. I mean, this virus ain't finished being a threat yet.

Yeah, that got ugly really fast and didn't let up......but like a car wreck....I could not look away. Now I can move along.

 

[Old cop]

Had a woman grab my revolver and almost wrench it free of the holster. I grabbed her wrist w/one hand and dropped her w/a good right cross. The strange thing was there were no pre attack indicators. We were facing each other while I was explaining the law relative to domestic assault. No retention holsters in the late '60s, she was so strong the holster tore as the gun came partially out.

 

[Chief Wiggums]

short n sweet
no gray matter

Regardless of your occupation , training never ends
Always strive to get better at what you do

the end