Cast vs Jacketed bullets on Whitetails?

[KODB]

Great pictures Sixshot!
Couple of questions: for your softpoints what is the proportion/how much pure lead do you add back to ww? Also, do you have much leading with your 357 loads or do you use gaschecks?
Thanks for a great discussion backed up with photos
Bob

 

[sixshot]

I did get the idea from Ross Seyfried's article & its worked great many times. If you think you need a little more "smack" & still want great penetration this is the way to get there.
One of 3 Warthogs taken in South Africa, one with the FA 475 & 370 gr cast.

Pretty good buck, Ruger 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith.

One of 2 feral hogs taken in Texas with a knife, believe me, this can get pretty wild!

Two Javelinas taken in west Texas, spring of 08 using an OM Ruger 41 shortie, 230 gr Keith, this little hunt got very exciting when I hit the varmint call.

The cow elk shown in the snow was taken at 168 yds, I tell the distance because I had a witness shooting her with a range finder as she worked her way down the ridge, my last 4 elk have been with the Ruger 45 colt.

Dick

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

So Dick,
you say you have a F/A 83 in .475? That is what I have too. I am sending it back for the barrel to be chopped to 6". I prefer that length for general use/ease of carry etc. I really like this gun!

Do you hang out over on Graybeard's site BTW?

Here is my F/A without scope as it is right now. It is one of only two non Smiths I own-

 

[Smokin' Iron]

There has been some good information and great pictures shared in this thread. Thanks again to everyone that has posted.

I like those Rugers you are using in the photos Sixshot. Normally I hunt with a scoped Redhawk, but this year the urge to use open sights and the looks of the 629 won out.

 

[sixshot]

Bob, I use a 380 case with a wire handle, I think it weighs around 100 grs of pure lead, then of course comes the WW alloy water quenched.
Guns 4 Fun, I left my 475 in Africa, my PH wanted it & we worked out a deal we were both happy with, I sent him the dies & mould after I got home, he wanted to whack a buffao with it. I used it on a warthog & a guinea fowl, it was roosting in a tree above me, kind of like shooting a pillow!
Someone ask about GC's, I use them on my 205 gr LBT slugs in the 10" Ruger 357 Maxie. All my other moulds are plain base, I like heavy slugs but I don't run them full throttle, you gain a little velocity & a lot of recoil, in taking big game for 45 years I've never recovered a cast slug, winding them up takes its toll on your accuracy, nerves, life of the gun,, etc. Its an advantage to shoot them as fast as you can but most people can't shoot nearly as well at max velocity. If I"m shooting through deer, elk, moose, bear, antelope & hogs at 1100 fps, why do I need 1300-1400 fps.

Dick

Dick

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

If I"m shooting through deer, elk, moose, bear, antelope & hogs at 1100 fps, why do I need 1300-1400 fps.

Amen! Nothing else need be added here.

 

[Holster]

Sixshot - What's your preference in barrel length for a hunting revolver? I see a good bit of variety in your pictures.

 

[sixshot]

Holster, I've used everything out there as far as barrel length but probably like the 5 1/2" Bisleys the best, of course going 1/2" either way isn't a big difference. What I do with all my sixguns is first, narrow the front sight to 1/10", 99% of them come 1/8" inch, thats why to thick for most of us older guys, we need daylight on either side of that sight, its really bad if you are shooting a 4" barrel gun. My oldest son is a member of the gunmakers guild so he does all my gun work including my competition revolvers. Narrowing them from .125" to .100" makes a huge difference, some people will disagree but they are standing inside an indoor range or shooting outdoors at midday, if you are a hunter you don't get those kinds of conditions very often in the hunting world, its either very early or very late, that buck or bull is standing on the edge of black timber, etc, you have to get a good sight picture with iron sights to be successful. When I shot that cow elk 2 years ago at 168 yds, she was standing in 18" of fresh snow, she looked as big as a bus & the sights were sharp & clear, I knew I could make that shot, under bad conditions where the sights aren't sharp I've passed many times at 50 yds or less. I also paint the front sight white with fingernail polish, I let it dry & then go over it with flourecent orange, this works much better than just using the orange. Again, you are almost working against yourself by going with huge bullets at maximum velocities, if you are somewhere in the 1100-1200 fps range you'll kill anything on the planet with good slugs. Velocity gains you a little flatter trajectory but we're shooting iron sighted revolvers here, how far are you going to shoot? I love the big heavy bullets but the added recoil works against you, its a plus if you can deal with it, most can't but won't change. Its too bad many don't understand the killing effeciency of a big, flat nosed cast slug above 1000 fps, there's no bad angles, I just make sure I'm lined up with the vitals somewhere on the offside & touch it off, I've never lost an animal but I couldn't do that with a jacketed slug. If you have to get rifle type results with your sixguns, better switch back to rifles. Good hunting.

Dick

 

[revolverfan2]

the deer my 44 has drop didn't care if it was lead or jacketed
they just layed there

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Dick,
I started using the orange over white on my front sight about 20 years ago. I learned it from a friend that I shot archery with back then. We used that setup on our sight pins. We used dayglo orange, and green for every other yardage pin. It worked great for that, so I started doing my black front sights that way. It helps tremendously in dark conditions or against a dark background. In dark timber on a black hog, it's almost impossible to pick up the front sight unless you use something like this for a good front sight pickup.

 

[lafayne]

Dick,

Thanks for posting all of the good photos and information. I can honestly say that I have never killed any big game with a handgun. I am 69 now and have three Ruger Bisleys with the Alan Harton treatment - one .41 mag and two in .45 Colt. They all shoot very well with cast bullets.

My grandson is 7 now and has started to hunt with us. I am going to give up the rifles and stick with the iron sighted revolvers. I am willing to wait for the right shot. You are one fine pistolero and a true sportsman.

Ken

 

[sixshot]

Ken, thanks & good for you for taking that grandson, its a special time when they start getting interested in hunting & dad or grandpa are there to help them along, I love it! I really, really need to have Alan build me a 480 Bisley.
Almost got a shot at a buck tonight, he turned away at the last minute instead of following the doe's, I've got 3 more days before heading to Montana.

Dick

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Dick, knock 'em dead. Literally.

 

[lafayne]

Dick,

I have two of the Bisley stainless steel Acusport 5.5 inch guns with Harton triggers - .41 and .45. My main hunting handgun will be my 7.5 inch Bisley .45 with Harton trigger and Harton patridge front sight. I shoots really well with nearly everything at about 1100 fps. Alan also checked the cylinder throats and reamed as necessary. Yes, you should let him build you a handgun.

At my age, I need the extra distance between those sights. That .41 will really shoots well though - probably the most inherently accurate handgun I own and will shoot nearly anything I can stuff in the cartridge case. I have never shot a bad group with it.

Again, thanks for the input. My grandson lives in LaPorte, Colorado and we have good connections in several states to hunt on private land. I'm hoping for lots of good time in the outdoors watching him grow into manhood. He is a really good left hand rifle shooter. I bought him a left hand CZ .22 rimfire and I have been collecting Ruger No. 3 carbines for him. I have all of them set up with good variable glass in Millet rings.

Ken

 

[moosedog]

For a heart / lung shot on a whitetail I'll use a cast SWC with a sharp shoulder rather than a JSP or JHP that may, and often does, fail to expand on soft tissue.
Worse case senerio is that I end up with a 44 caliber hole with the cast SWC caused by it's sharp shoulder. If the JSP fails to expand, it will punch a hole just like a round nosed bullet, pushing the skin and then letting the hole close back up partially.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

moosedog,

I have no desire to get into a flaming match with anyone and so you have the freedom to accept this or reject it.Before rejecting it, you might consider doing some research on the matter.

I am not saying that swc's are bad because I've been using them for many years but there is a lot of myth and hype surrounding the design that is not accurate.Perception becomes reality.Once something becomes repeated a million times,it becomes fact whether it is or not.

The original conclusion was that because of the cleaner and larger hole made on targets,the sharp shoulder will have the same effect in flesh.This is proven to be false.High speed photo shows clearly that the shock waves do not permit the shoulder to even touch flesh.The shock wave is virtually the same between the various profiles.This is even admitted and acknowledged by Ross Seyfried who's mentor was Keith.

It makes a difference in bone the same way that it makes a difference on card board,etc,etc but not on flesh.The observations that say otherwise are those who see what they expect to see.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

canoe- we rarely disagree, but do here. If you read Brian Pearces articles, and I'm pretty sure you do, then you must have just read the one in which he put what you said about the sharp shoulder not cutting to the test. He was able to show that they do indeed make contact with the target, and I'm not talking paper. I am a Ross Seyfreid fan and reader, and in fact have some pesonal correspondences with him here with me. He is a big pusher for the LBT designs, which, while great bullets, and I use them myself, don't cut as clean a hole as the Keith designs.

Pearce's test were pretty well done, and show that the stories going around about the Keith bullet's shoulder not cutting are false. It is in a recent issue of Handloader.

 

[sixshot]

I read & re-read Brian Pearce's article on whether the shoulder makes contact or not (it does) he was marking the shoulder of the bullets with a felt marker & then recovering them, clearly showing the should making contact......but does it really matter, if cast slugs are working for you, keep using them, if you don't like them stay with jacketed.
Cast has worked for me for over 40 years, taking many different animals from moose & elk down to small deer, antelope & hogs, if a cast bullet fails I firmly believe it was because of bullet placement. To me saying a jacketed bullet will work where a cast bullet will fail is totally unbelieveable. Some of the keyboard experts with 1-2 white tails under their belts would have you believe jacketed is the only way to hunt, its simply not true, shoot 30-40 animals with each & give your opinion. On the classic broadside shot at an unsuspecting deer I'll give the edge to jacketed, how often do you get the classic broadside shot?

Dick

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Sixgun,

I'm not sure if your response is to me or not.If it is,I don't recall ever saying that the cast bullet is inferior.I understand the advantages of both and I'm certainly not one who's only shot deer.

There are times when I seriously question the reading comprehension of some of the forum members.I've been frequently accused of saying what I have not said.

Perhaps your post was not directed at me.

 

[sixshot]

Canoe, the original post was, jacketed or cast for whitetails, I was directing my comment to that. I do think there are many who use a certain slug once or twice & if they fail its the bullets fault, if they suceed, that bullet is the only one that works, just human nature I guess. I stated quite a few times that if I were an eastern white tail hunter or maybe hunting a small parcel in Texas, someplace where I didn't want my deer to get off the property, then I'd probably opt for a jacketed HP, I do think they add a little more smack & then for sure give the gunner some expansion. I think this is where they really shine, if the correct one is chosen.
Where I live (Idaho) the shots are normally longer, the deer almost always has seen me & the shot is very seldom on level ground or classic broadside, to me a cast slug is tailor made for big game for these reasons. But because I've taken so much game with cast I only use cast regardless of where I'm hunting, that includes Texas, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Alaska & Africa, give me cast & I'll be happy.
My mind was made up many years ago, now there are some very fine jacketed slugs on the market that will do some of the things a cast slug will do, that is, deep penetration & many times expansion, thats great. I have some friends around the country who use premium jacketed slugs on everything & they have taken many head of game, its up to the shooter to decide.
Sure wish a guy could hunt with handguns in Canada, I'd be there!

Dick