CCW: Keep one in the pipe?
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Thunderhawk88
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Really?? My M&P-9 has no safety and would have discharged the same way. That wasn't the gun's fault but the owners fault for not keeping his holster in good shape.
To the OP's question- without one in the chamber your gun is just a very expensive club.
cmort666
Member
You're not advocating that people carry where it's UNLAWFUL to do so, are you?Many with carry permits don't carry much and very few carry all the time everywhere they go. My guess is that a lot of folks who profess with such fervor how important C1 is don't always carry. So guess what... they ain't always got one in the pipe either.
Should I carry into posted (and statutorily barred) facilities contrary to Ohio law?
ChattanoogaPhil
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Waywatcher
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I look at all this heavy debate with a little humor. I carry a .380 and have been told by more than one here how useless the caliber is. So what difference would it make if one was in the pipe or not?
Many with carry permits don't carry much and very few carry all the time everywhere they go. My guess is that a lot of folks who profess with such fervor how important C1 is don't always carry. So guess what... they ain't always got one in the pipe either.
To have legs to stand on in this debate, one must first carry everywhere possible. Only then does caliber or condition of readiness enter into the equation.
I'm not chest thumping, but I recently made the decision to carry my full size 1911 whenever possible; cocked and locked. Why? Because I approached it this way, "what gun would I want, if today I actually had to use it?" If this is not possible, only then do I allow myself to pocket carry my S&W Airweight. I set up my safe, deliberately, to make it easy to grab my 1911, and a PITA to grab my pocket gun. 2 of the last 7 days I carried my snub; the other 5 days I carried my 1911. This is what works for me.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Yup. if I have pants on I'm carrying.
Here is an interesting thread and poll. Keep in mind this is a gun enthusiasts Forum and it's still running under 50% for when they are going somewhere. I'm guessing that number takes a huge hit if including walking to the neighbors across the street, cutting the grass.... on and on. I'm thinking average Joe/Jane permit holders maybe 5-10% carry all the time everywhere. Maybe even lower.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/336696-how-often-do-you-carry.html
Mort.. notice the qualifier in the poll... Legal.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
The reason I asked is because the thumb safety on an M&P offers no more safety when carrying than a gun without. All the safety does is block trigger movement. If carrying in a proper holster, the trigger is covered so, it won't move. Thus, the gun is safe either way.
Just thought you'd want to know.
Protected One
Member
There are some instances where a manual safety would come in handy. Such as when the Chief of Police shot himself in the leg (at a LGS) while trying to re-holster his glock. A manual safety (if engaged) would have prevented his jackets pull-cord from firing the weapon. But generally speaking, you are correct.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, I agree. Reholstering is where the thumb safety is really valuable. I only point out the limited function of the M&P thumb safety because many think it's more than it is.
Any properly functioning and holstered handgun can be safely carried in condition 0. Still, it can be unnerving to do. The 70 series 1911 would be sketchy, but the 80 series is protected by the firing pin block as is the M&P. So, there's no concern, other than mishandling, if there's no thumb safety.
Any properly functioning and holstered handgun can be safely carried in condition 0. Still, it can be unnerving to do. The 70 series 1911 would be sketchy, but the 80 series is protected by the firing pin block as is the M&P. So, there's no concern, other than mishandling, if there's no thumb safety.
Protected One
Member
Don't get me wrong - I understood (and agree with) your point.
It's just the "stickler for detail" in me that sometime comes out.
Something happened at the range the other day that made me think.
I inserted a mag, racked the slide, and assumed a firing position, just like I do.
I squeezed the trigger. All I heard was a soft 'click'.
I looked down and the cartridge was not fully seated.
Oops.
I had limp wristed the rack, I guess.
So, to the point: if I can't rack the slide to chamber a round on Saturday morning, at the range, after 8 hours sleep, bacon, eggs and coffee, how in the heavens should I expect to do it under pressure?!
Consider me sold on a round in the chamber.
I inserted a mag, racked the slide, and assumed a firing position, just like I do.
I squeezed the trigger. All I heard was a soft 'click'.
I looked down and the cartridge was not fully seated.
Oops.
I had limp wristed the rack, I guess.
So, to the point: if I can't rack the slide to chamber a round on Saturday morning, at the range, after 8 hours sleep, bacon, eggs and coffee, how in the heavens should I expect to do it under pressure?!
Consider me sold on a round in the chamber.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
An excellent point. I'm glad you're seeing the light and that you're telling us about it. This will help someone.
To avoid the possibility of human error when racking in the first round, here's a method that works well. Grasp the top of the slide with your support hand in an over hand grip. Now, try to rip the slide off the back of the gun. Your support hand should travel all the way to your shooting side shoulder. Using this method will prevent the possibility of riding the slide forward.
Waywatcher
Member
Put very well into words. This is exactly how I rack my pistols. Often, after the process Rastoff describes perfectly, I've noticed my support hand budges into my opposite bicep.
PastureOfMuppets
Member
Personally, I carry a belt-belt-fed-semi-auto with one in the "pipe".
Protected One
Member
^ +1. This is the most recommended method, as it removes hand/wrist strength from the equation and utilizes leverage and the stronger muscles of the arms.
Also, this method is prefered over "thumbing" the slide lock to release the slide and chamber a round.
Dr.ButcherMD
Member
+1 for loaded chamber. Don't want any regrets when seconds count.
I agree it will never end as long as we have people who will not give any credibility to any other answer than their own.
Earlier someone, maybe you, mentioned that a CCW was to protect themselves from an armed assailant. Presumably one who is going to give little to no notice of an attack.
In my neck of the woods those things do happen but they are so rare that you can expect it will not happen to you, but like the lottery it's going to happen to someone and that's why many of us choose to carry. In my area it's far more likely that you'll have a minute or more to size up any potential situation and make a decision whether to draw or handle in a different manner. In these situations C3 would work fine.
I'm sure many will still disagree but consider this if you can have an open mind about the subject without resorting to immediately using disparaging remarks that have nothing to do with the actual pros and cons of one or another method of carry or condition in which to carry.
I've never practiced drawing and firing with an actual timer to measure seconds but I'm guessing it takes a second or two for the average trained shooter to draw and get two in the torso.
In two seconds a close up assailant can hit you multiple times or put at C1 carrier on the ground. In that case, and assuming you're still capable, a C3 carrier is in big trouble due to the added action of chambering a round. No doubt about it, the C1 carrier has the better chance at survival in this situation.
But what if the attacker does more than grab you or put you on the ground? Let's say he injures you to the point where you cannot draw by any means. In that case there is no difference in C1/C3. So how do we prepare for such an encounter.
How about not place the weapon in the holster at all? Maybe we should all carry low ready or high ready as if clearing a room. Maybe have a wingman or a whole stack team just in case their is more than one BG.
My point is that many times I see the C3 status criticized basically because it is not responsive enough. How responsive should the carry position be? As responsive as C1 which still has limitations?
In addition, I see many who criticize a lack of training. While I agree that an armed person should be trained, what is the level and who decides? We probably all agree that once every 5 years at the CCW range and class is probably not optimal but what is enough? A few refreshers and a couple trips to the range a year? A month? 5000rds a year plus advanced training classes? Military or law enforcement training? Education and awareness? A subjective proclamation by the user of feeling comfortable?
The real answer is the local CCW issuer decides the minimal required for the permit and the user decides from there. Sometimes it's a little scary when you think about it. At one extreme we have people who are irresponsible because they lack training and at the other end we have people who are irresponsible because they're a little too eager.
I find it interesting that some folks claim to have the one and only answer to a question that really comes down to personal decision and personal preference on how to carry.
I see statements that say not to try and use military or law enforcement to establish credibility if you're defend C3. That's ridiculous. Understanding that a large number of law enforcement and military don't have much experience with handguns, and especially CWW, and acknowledging that just wearing the uniform probably decreases their risk of random violence to nearly zero, there is still no reason to try and discredit all military or law enforcement. Maybe the poster didn't mean it that way, but it seemed to me he did. If that's the case then all experience and claimed credentials should get the same treatment. They're all worthless. Then where are we? Just discussing the points. If that is the case then we can have no statements that simply declare what is right such as "There are no valid reasons to carry C3." That statement must be backed by logic, not made as a declaration.
I argue that each person who carries must decide for themselves and consider the totality of the circumstances such as training, clothing, and location.
@forrestinmathews, I use "you" a lot in this post but I'm not addressing you specifically, I'm addressing the subject and the points made. No offence meant to you or anyone personally.
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bhayles
Member
Besides being a worn out holster that you shouldn't carry ANY gun in, its an inappropriate holster for a Glock (incidentally, I doubt a Glock would be discharged with even that worn holster. The piece of leather doesn't look like it reaches to the center trigger safety on a Glock). I carry a Glock and use a polymer holster made specifically for my Glock model. The trigger is covered and there is a release for the gun that I can push as I unholster the gun but no one else could disengage easily.
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