Cessna 560 Crashes

[Retired W4]

The 560 Ultra is near and dear to my heart. I flew one for my last tour before I retired from the Army. We called it the UC-35 and we ran the school house for them at Dobbins JRB. Beside training the new UC-35 pilots we also ran regular OSA (Operational Support Airlift) missions, flying generals, congress people and their staff. Great duty in a great little jet. Because of the flying we did we received all the new ones off the assembly line in Kansas. When a new one was delivered to the Army we sent our high time A/C to the next unit in line to get one. They were well equipped and easy to fly.

Because we really don't yet know what happened the other day, I can only speculate, but here is my best guess. A rapid decompression at FL340 (34,000 ft.) only gives the pilots a few minutes to don their oxygen masks before they fall asleep. There would be an aural signal (loud horn) and warning light on the panel prompting action. If the pilots don't react immediately, sorry Charlie. The autopilot would take you to your destination, except for the altitude commands which would require input from the pilots. Why did the airplane turn over the destination and return to Tennessee? I think the pilots had pre-programed the return leg which rolled over in the FMS and took them home. There could be debate on that point. They left E. TN with enough fuel to get to point one, with a reasonable reserve, and ran out of fuel on the "ahead of schedule" return. The impact was not survivable but I don't think any one felt any pain. The were all in a hypoxia induced sleep. Sound familiar?

Military pilots undergo training in "the tank" where they slowly suck the air out, simulating, as I remember, about 24,000 ft. so each individual knows his reaction to hypoxia. For me everything seemed funny. Not the best reaction to an emergency. Then they do a rapid decompression (pop the cork) where you go from about 5000 to 30,000 in a second. The tank fills up with fog and your mind immediately starts to fade. Civilians don't get that training.

I've been out of the flying business for 16 years now, so I might be missing something. We should know more when the NTSB and FAA finish investigating, but that will be a long while.

 

[Gamecock]

Payne Stewart

 

[TJm15.38]

Time of useful consciousness at that altitude would only be about 30 seconds to one minute. Oxygen, on and 100% real fast is the only thing that would save you. I have no time in the Cessna, but a few hundred hours in the C-21A (Lear 35). Both airplanes probably have similar warning systems.

 

[Alk8944]

A very reasonable and logical evaluation of the likely cause of the crash. In about 2 years we may hear from the NTSB on the result of the investigation.

The same thing as described by Retired W4 happened to a Lear Jet carrying PGA golfer Payne Stewart and others in 1999. Left Orlando en-route a location in Texas as I recall. Pressurization failed a few minutes after takeoff. The plane had a full load of fuel and continued on it's original course and programmed altitude until fuel starvation occurred and the plane eventually crashed in South Dakota. It had been shadowed by USAF planes most of the way and reportedly would have been shot down once it was determined everyone on board had to be dead, and if it had endangered any major area of population it could have passed over.

 

[Retired W4]

"Time of useful consciousness" is the term. In the C560, and likely the Lear 31/35, the cockpit masks deliver 100% O2. People in the back get diluted O2.

Army regs say one hour above 10,000, 30 minutes above 12,000 w/o Supplemental O2, and anytime above 14,000 O2 required. Generally speaking, when cabin pressurization fails: masks-don, throttles to idle, point that sucker at the ground, deploy speed brakes if you have them. Simultaneously if possible. All of a sudden I'm missing flying.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Payne Stewart

How well I remember that. I was an avid golfer and fan and I stayed glued to the telly as the entire heartbreaking tale unfolded.

Payne was bringing fun, excitement and playful fashion back to golf. The entire golf world grieved that day.

His funeral was one of the best tributes I have ever seen anyone receive.

 

[Narragansett]

How well I remember that. I was an avid golfer and fan and I stayed glued to the telly as the entire heartbreaking tale unfolded.

Payne was bringing fun, excitement and playful fashion back to golf. The entire golf world grieved that day.

His funeral was one of the best tributes I have ever seen anyone receive.

He did dress the traditional part

 

[martyd]

Sorry, I decided this post was not pertinent and removed it.

 

[Rudi]

When I hear Cessna, I think of a small prop plane. Forgot they make jets. At this point it looks like only 1 pilot on board? The DC Air Guard put the peddle to the metal, the sonic boom freaked a bunch of people out. I'm done flying. A very sad tale. More details will come out.

 

[DWalt]

On the TV news this evening, the speculation is that hypoxia was the cause.

 

[mojave30cal]

You might also speculate that there might have been some
sort of health emergency with the pilot. It happens, and with
a single pilot operation, there is no backup. Tragic.

 

[Retired W4]

The idea that there might have been only one pilot, as reported, in the Citation 560 might be a little troublesome. Authorization for that type of operation, through an exemption, is a fairly complicated matter with some stringent requirements. That matter should be cleared up quickly with a check of the pilots training records and pilot certification. That's not to say that information will be released to the public when discovered.

 

[MDF4]

I don't know much about corp baby jets but looking at the C560 specs qualifies for dual crew as noted by RetiredW4. Just heard on the news a shadow plane watched the pilot slump over. Who knows?...it's going to be awhile.

 

[BlackAgnes]

Old AWACer here. I was surprised to hear from a friend, an airline pilot, formerly a Viper driver, that commercial airline pilots do not receive hypoxia training. He actually saved a flight where he recognized hypoxia symptoms and instructed the captain to don his mask--the captain had no idea that he was becoming hypoxic. How can the airlines ignore this real risk?

I was on duty at the Northeast Air Defense Sector when Payne Stewart's plane went down. Tense moments.

 

[Retired W4]

During the 14 years I flew Army fixed wing A/C I went through the altitude chamber 3 or 4 times. The chambers were all run buy the Air Force. I'm sure Flight Safety International could make a ton of money if they built one, or two. I also went through the Navy's "dunker" in Florida. Good training.

 

[MDF4]

During the 14 years I flew Army fixed wing A/C I went through the altitude chamber 3 or 4 times. The chambers were all run buy the Air Force. I'm sure Flight Safety International could make a ton of money if they built one, or two. I also went through the Navy's "dunker" in Florida. Good training.

The Dunker..


[FONT=&quot]The one man “Dunker.” Ride the rail down flips at the bottom. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Ensign I’m gonna’ tell you one more time…follow the $%^&* bubbles to the surface…Got it!?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell me…blackout shield…how am I supposed to see where the heck are the bubbles going...Sir?[/FONT]

 

[Retired W4]

The Dunker..


[FONT=&quot]The one man “Dunker.” Ride the rail down flips at the bottom. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Ensign I’m gonna’ tell you one more time…follow the $%^&* bubbles to the surface…Got it!?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell me…blackout shield…how am I supposed to see where the heck are the bubbles going...Sir?[/FONT]

You've been there too. Especially pertinent with helicopters...don't inflate your LPU until you clear the A/C. A few of us were doing over water ops in the 80s (helocasting, etc.) and were able to wrangle a class. They could make it dark in there. Even got a few ship landings with the Navy.

 

[TJm15.38]

My entire career flying in the Air Force, over 6500 hours, I only experienced one rapid decompression. Luckily, it was in a C-130H at FL 220 (22,000 feet); not really very high altitude. This happened because of a malfunction in the pressurization system, but it still gets your attention when the flight deck fogs up, and you feel a bunch of air rush out of your lungs. As the pilot, my first reaction was to loudly state over the intercom that I wanted everybody to go on "Oxygen, 100% and check back in when you've done so!" We declared an emergency (required by our regulations) and immediately started a rapid descent below 10,000 feet MSL (flight over water, so terrain wasn't an issue). Everybody on the crew checked in and no one experienced any problems. We were unable to pressurize the airplane and had to continue to destination at altitudes 10,000 feet or below. Our regulations stated that whenever a crew experienced a rapid decompression, they had to be checked out by a flight surgeon post flight. FL 220 is not a big problem; but in a jet at altitudes in the mid 30's, you don't have much time to get on oxygen and immediately descend. We did a rapid decompression drill in the altitude chamber during periodic physiological training. That training helped me when it happened for real.

 

[johnbeaver]

Question.
If the pilot had already programmed the return in the auto-pilot, why did he go through restricted airspace?
Is that something that is done manually at the time it is encountered?

 

[TJm15.38]

Question.
If the pilot had already programmed the return in the auto-pilot, why did he go through restricted airspace?
Is that something that is done manually at the time it is encountered?

We don't know what was programmed in the Flight Management System (FMS), but the autopilot obviously followed some kind of programming. Just speculation, but it could have been some sort of emergency return direct route back to airlield of departure. The NTSB will hopefully figure all of that out.