Great suggestions. Will do.
Changing my edc gun to 22 LR (new info at the end of thread)
- Thread starter richardw
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Great suggestions. Will do.
Want to thank everyone for their comments in this thread and for the civility that is often absent in other forums. I got some food for thought from some posts. The revolver advocates make good points but I don't like the feel of them in the hand. I love the ergonomics of the 22 Compact. I have put over 1,000 rounds through it in three months using only CCI Mini Mags. No failures to feed, fire, or eject. I love the gun and the ammo.
I did a lot of research into ammo before making a decision to use Mini Mag HP ammo. Initially, I thought CCI Velocitor would be best due to it higher velocity, but after researching ballistic reports I learned that it does not reliably expand when fired from a hand gun because the short barrel does not allow the powder to burn enough to achieve the needed velocity. The Mini Mag has different powder and it does reach near max velocity out of a handgun, and it more reliably expands. If it does not it amounts to shooting RN, and that means a bullet that penetrates and tumbles rather than expands. That wil rip a lot of tissue. Works for me.
Thanks to all again. Semper Fi.
I did a lot of research into ammo before making a decision to use Mini Mag HP ammo. Initially, I thought CCI Velocitor would be best due to it higher velocity, but after researching ballistic reports I learned that it does not reliably expand when fired from a hand gun because the short barrel does not allow the powder to burn enough to achieve the needed velocity. The Mini Mag has different powder and it does reach near max velocity out of a handgun, and it more reliably expands. If it does not it amounts to shooting RN, and that means a bullet that penetrates and tumbles rather than expands. That wil rip a lot of tissue. Works for me.
Thanks to all again. Semper Fi.
I read somewhere a long time ago, maybe by Bill Jordan, that more folks
have been killed with a 22 than any other caliber, If you don't count those
killed in wars.
have been killed with a 22 than any other caliber, If you don't count those
killed in wars.
Tom_R
Member
Yes, I agree 22LR should be the last choice for EDC, but as you note, in a revolver, you pull the trigger again and get a new Cylinder if it has an issue igniting the Primer.
Wee Hooker
Member
The one time I needed to pull a gun, it was the .22 that I happened to be in my pocket while walking in the woods.. Just showing it was enough to defuse the situation but I was prepared to empty the mag of .22 stingers if needed.
That said, hopefully we both can go the rest of our years without testing the fight stopping power of the .22.
That said, hopefully we both can go the rest of our years without testing the fight stopping power of the .22.
Apparently it is a fact based upon a study done some years ago. I found the study while researching my choice. Then I found a blog that cited the study's important stats. Anyone who is interested can read the very brief article and see the stats here.
I think those charts show the point I was trying to make, i.e. there is a difference between lethality and stopping power. The bad guy you shoot with your .22 might very well end up beating you to death, but you'll have the satisfaction that he died later.
walkin' trails
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Changing my edc gun to 22 LR
I can find no fault in carrying a .22 under some circumstances, such as when maximum conceal-ability is needed, or in the case of injuries or physical limitations that prevent the use of other types of pistols or calibers. I don't have any experience with the M&P 22 Compact, but I would say that if it works well, then have two of them.
I have a soft spot for the Beretta 21A. I have two. One was one from the earliest production, and the other from the late 80s. I put far more rounds through both of them than I think Beretta ever intended. Both are in serious need of an armorer. There were probably over 10k rounds fired between the two, with half being the hyper velocity stuff from Remington and CCI. My favorite carry round was the Remington 40 grain solid point Golden Bullet. It was cheap, reliable, and accurate. I seem to recall that the 21s didn't like the CCIs as much or maybe I didn't see the need to buy anything more expensive than the Golden Bullets.
To carry the 21, get a decent pocket holster. I didn't have one back when I carried the 21s regularly. No incidents or problems, but now recognize the benefit. The 21 works really well in an ankle holster, or in the glove pocket of a leather jacket. Mine spent a fair amount of time in the front pocket of my BDU trousers. Keep the chamber clean. The 21 does not have an extractor. I never found it to be a problem unless extended range time resulted in a lot of carbon and powder grit build-up. A quick run of a chamber brush always took care of the problem. The 21A is accurate enough to ding a pepper popper at 100 yards. I probably had to aim at the "head" portion to get the hit. With a barrel that is about an inch and a half, ballistics are not impressive, but having a pistol that is unquestionably affordable to shoot a lot affords one the opportunity to build the individual skills necessary to hit critical targets multiple times under stress. Carry a couple of spare magazines. My contemporaries back in the 80s and 90s had Walther TPHs, Jennings J22s, and a little Iver Johnson copy of a Walther. The Iver was close in many aspects except for long term longevity (zinc frame), but the Beretta 21A was by far a better pistol than the rest in its category.
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I can find no fault in carrying a .22 under some circumstances, such as when maximum conceal-ability is needed, or in the case of injuries or physical limitations that prevent the use of other types of pistols or calibers. I don't have any experience with the M&P 22 Compact, but I would say that if it works well, then have two of them.
I have a soft spot for the Beretta 21A. I have two. One was one from the earliest production, and the other from the late 80s. I put far more rounds through both of them than I think Beretta ever intended. Both are in serious need of an armorer. There were probably over 10k rounds fired between the two, with half being the hyper velocity stuff from Remington and CCI. My favorite carry round was the Remington 40 grain solid point Golden Bullet. It was cheap, reliable, and accurate. I seem to recall that the 21s didn't like the CCIs as much or maybe I didn't see the need to buy anything more expensive than the Golden Bullets.
To carry the 21, get a decent pocket holster. I didn't have one back when I carried the 21s regularly. No incidents or problems, but now recognize the benefit. The 21 works really well in an ankle holster, or in the glove pocket of a leather jacket. Mine spent a fair amount of time in the front pocket of my BDU trousers. Keep the chamber clean. The 21 does not have an extractor. I never found it to be a problem unless extended range time resulted in a lot of carbon and powder grit build-up. A quick run of a chamber brush always took care of the problem. The 21A is accurate enough to ding a pepper popper at 100 yards. I probably had to aim at the "head" portion to get the hit. With a barrel that is about an inch and a half, ballistics are not impressive, but having a pistol that is unquestionably affordable to shoot a lot affords one the opportunity to build the individual skills necessary to hit critical targets multiple times under stress. Carry a couple of spare magazines. My contemporaries back in the 80s and 90s had Walther TPHs, Jennings J22s, and a little Iver Johnson copy of a Walther. The Iver was close in many aspects except for long term longevity (zinc frame), but the Beretta 21A was by far a better pistol than the rest in its category.
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StakeOut
US Veteran
I carry an SR22 most of the year loaded with Stingers. plus 1 extra mag.
I'm 74 and no physical problems shooting yet.
I'm 74 and no physical problems shooting yet.
F
I want to share a couple things I learned while researching my decision to switch to 22 for edc. I was sure that the CCI Stinger or Velocitor would be the best choice. I had previously boiled down my choice of a 22 to either a SR22 or the 22 Compact. After renting both at my LGS range I decided on M&P 22 Compact.. Both were fine and reliable guns, but for me the M&P just felt better in my hand. I also was a bit turned off by the SR22's plastic recoil rod. I like steel as in the M&P.
I did query both Ruger and S&W about using CCI Stinger ammo. Both replied that they recommended not using that ammo in any of their rimfire guns. No details were given, but my research online led me to believe that the high pressure created on firing the Stinger was punshing the 22 barrels to their limit. So I concluded it was not a long term option because I did not want s barrel to rupture at some point in the future.
As for the Velocitor (and Stinger) I could not fins a ballistic test that showed any HP expansion out of a handgun. At the same time I found several reports that showed CCI Mini Mag HPs did expand when fires from a 3.5 inch barrel into ballistic gel. I also found a test of Mini Mag HP fired at a pig thigh bone (very thick). It blew the bone apart when hit at 10 feet, which is a likely distance in a SD encounter. Being able to penetrate bone is really important when it comes to incapacitation.
So I am a CCI Mini Mag advocate. I an not an expert but I a competent researcher. I make decisions based upon research not urban myth.
I want to share a couple things I learned while researching my decision to switch to 22 for edc. I was sure that the CCI Stinger or Velocitor would be the best choice. I had previously boiled down my choice of a 22 to either a SR22 or the 22 Compact. After renting both at my LGS range I decided on M&P 22 Compact.. Both were fine and reliable guns, but for me the M&P just felt better in my hand. I also was a bit turned off by the SR22's plastic recoil rod. I like steel as in the M&P.
I did query both Ruger and S&W about using CCI Stinger ammo. Both replied that they recommended not using that ammo in any of their rimfire guns. No details were given, but my research online led me to believe that the high pressure created on firing the Stinger was punshing the 22 barrels to their limit. So I concluded it was not a long term option because I did not want s barrel to rupture at some point in the future.
As for the Velocitor (and Stinger) I could not fins a ballistic test that showed any HP expansion out of a handgun. At the same time I found several reports that showed CCI Mini Mag HPs did expand when fires from a 3.5 inch barrel into ballistic gel. I also found a test of Mini Mag HP fired at a pig thigh bone (very thick). It blew the bone apart when hit at 10 feet, which is a likely distance in a SD encounter. Being able to penetrate bone is really important when it comes to incapacitation.
So I am a CCI Mini Mag advocate. I an not an expert but I a competent researcher. I make decisions based upon research not urban myth.
While I do not use .22s as my primary self defense firearm, I do have a bunch of .22s around and figured that having suitable ammo for defense if for some reason the .22 was all I had was smart. After a bunch of research and some trials on what fed 100% of the time I went with the recommendation from ShootingtheBull410 Ammo Quest and went with the CCI Mini-Mag 36-Grain Hollowpoint Troy Landry edition. I assume they are the same as the standard Mini-Mag HP, but as these had some testing and were available locally I grabbed a box to test and then several more once everything had a couple mags through them with out a hiccup.
kthom
Member
We are not talking here about what's best for us! Richard is not making this decision out of hand. His circumstances dictate this choice. His other choice is to quit carrying and shooting and have no option at all as far as personal protection is concerned.
The question here is what is best for him, in his situation, under the circumstances that he must deal with at this time in his life. I know a grandmother who carries a small .22LR revolver in her purse (not my choice of a place to carry, but ... I can tell you that I do not want her shooting at me!! I've seen her shoot it more than once.
If Richard can handle and shoot the gun of his choice well, and it appears he can (1000 rounds in three months is far more than about 90% of us here have fired ... I'm guessing here, and maybe it's 50 % ... you understand what I'm saying!), then I feel that we need to salute him for making this deliberate and intelligent decision.
If a person is going to carry at all, or even own a gun for just home protection, that person needs to have a gun that they can load and shoot to the best of their ability, and they need to be able to practice with it. I carry a different gun now because I cannot carry the weight of my previous choice all day long every day. And I am able to stand and fire it long enough and often enough to maintain as much proficiency as my old eyes and diminishing hand and arm strength will allow. If the day comes, and it will if I live long enough, I will continue to shoot something as long as I can see down the barrel well enough to hold it in place center mass.
I do what I do based on my needs and abilities. I enjoy hearing what others choose, but even when I was able to shoot anything that was available, my choices were still based on what was best for ME!
I've bought a few handguns that were really dandys. They did not fit my hand properly and I could not do my best shooting with them. I don't own them any more! We all (should) do the best we can with what we have and can afford and have some money left over for practice ammo. I still salute Richard for finding a solution that works for him, and I suspect anyone who thinks they can take advantage of him is going to be in for a very rude awakening! One shot stops are NOT guaranteed with any caliber or any gun. Having a gun and being willing to use it if necessary very very often makes a significant positive difference in outcomes!
I'm not trying to rag on any one here or disrespect their comments. We all want to help. But a man (or woman) has to know their limitations and then make arrangements to do the best they can do under those circumstances. I'm saying this to myself as much as to anyone else! Thanks for letting me do so.
The question here is what is best for him, in his situation, under the circumstances that he must deal with at this time in his life. I know a grandmother who carries a small .22LR revolver in her purse (not my choice of a place to carry, but ... I can tell you that I do not want her shooting at me!! I've seen her shoot it more than once.
If Richard can handle and shoot the gun of his choice well, and it appears he can (1000 rounds in three months is far more than about 90% of us here have fired ... I'm guessing here, and maybe it's 50 % ... you understand what I'm saying!), then I feel that we need to salute him for making this deliberate and intelligent decision.
If a person is going to carry at all, or even own a gun for just home protection, that person needs to have a gun that they can load and shoot to the best of their ability, and they need to be able to practice with it. I carry a different gun now because I cannot carry the weight of my previous choice all day long every day. And I am able to stand and fire it long enough and often enough to maintain as much proficiency as my old eyes and diminishing hand and arm strength will allow. If the day comes, and it will if I live long enough, I will continue to shoot something as long as I can see down the barrel well enough to hold it in place center mass.
I do what I do based on my needs and abilities. I enjoy hearing what others choose, but even when I was able to shoot anything that was available, my choices were still based on what was best for ME!
I've bought a few handguns that were really dandys. They did not fit my hand properly and I could not do my best shooting with them. I don't own them any more! We all (should) do the best we can with what we have and can afford and have some money left over for practice ammo. I still salute Richard for finding a solution that works for him, and I suspect anyone who thinks they can take advantage of him is going to be in for a very rude awakening! One shot stops are NOT guaranteed with any caliber or any gun. Having a gun and being willing to use it if necessary very very often makes a significant positive difference in outcomes!
I'm not trying to rag on any one here or disrespect their comments. We all want to help. But a man (or woman) has to know their limitations and then make arrangements to do the best they can do under those circumstances. I'm saying this to myself as much as to anyone else! Thanks for letting me do so.
I had both my basal thumb joints go bad due to R/A and know just what you mean. I found an excellent hand surgeon here in Denver and he did a reconstruction of both thumbs using compressed cadaver ligament tissue to replace the basal joint bone. He told me that this procedure has been around for about half a century and is generally highly successful. It HAS been for me. I can handle my 1911's, my Sig P-239 .357 Sig that is my primary carry gun and almost all my revolvers. My M-29 and M-57 were just too much so I sold them and bought three more M-66's, which shoot just fine for me. Give this some thought. The .22 lr has probably killed more people than any other caliber, but not necessarily right away.
Good luck
Good luck
OP, one consideration for carry ammo. I just listened to an old podcast with Claude Werner answering a similar question. His recommendation was not to worry so much about HP vs round nose, etc. but to get the best match grade ammo that cycles reliably in your gun. In his opinion, the biggest downside to rimfire ammo is primer reliability. Match grade ammo will be pricier but you can count on it to go bang. Certainly practice with the bulk stuff. It was an interesting take on a topic usually dominated by penetration and expansion. In this case, hollow point or not, you are making tiny holes, so make sure you make a tiny hole every time you pull the trigger.
JcMack
Member
I've got two LCR's. One in .22 LR (8 shot) and one in .327 mag. (6 shot). I'm not sure about relying on the .22, but I carry the .327 with .32 H&R's in it regularly. I'm 69 with some wrist issues and the .32 is very manageable.
oldnavynukespook
US Veteran
While I switch off between my LCP and my LC9S for concealed carry, I do a lot of target practice with a High-Standard Model 104 U.S. Property target pistol. However, one of my favorite wheel guns is a nickel 2-inch S&W 34-1. Amazingly, I'm as accurate with it as the H-S. If I were faced with the infirmities described, I'd not hesitate to carry the 34-1.
fiasconva
Member
Anything is better than no weapon at all. One of my former "honor students" got himself killed by a 22 while doing a home invasion. Not a one shot stop but he got shot, ran outside, and died in the homeowner's front yard.
Any .22 L.R. that would expand would not give reliable penetration.
My KelTec .32 acp has very little recoil, and with the copper LeHigh bullet gives the penetration of a .380 acp. Reliability of a centerfire primer.
Obvious downside too $$$ to practice with compared to .22 or even a 9mm.
I had a Beretta 21A 22 L.R.once, got rid of it. No matter what ammo or magazine changes, I would have failures to extract 3 times each magazine. The Pistol uses blowback to extract the shell rather than an extractor and you are limited to punching the bullet out rather than racking the slide.
My 21A .25 acp was 100%. Got rid of it too when I got my .32.
I think Beretta may make a tilt up that chambers the .32 acp.
My KelTec .32 acp has very little recoil, and with the copper LeHigh bullet gives the penetration of a .380 acp. Reliability of a centerfire primer.
Obvious downside too $$$ to practice with compared to .22 or even a 9mm.
I had a Beretta 21A 22 L.R.once, got rid of it. No matter what ammo or magazine changes, I would have failures to extract 3 times each magazine. The Pistol uses blowback to extract the shell rather than an extractor and you are limited to punching the bullet out rather than racking the slide.
My 21A .25 acp was 100%. Got rid of it too when I got my .32.
I think Beretta may make a tilt up that chambers the .32 acp.
TomkinsSP
Member
I have seen plenty of folks who met their end thanks to a .22 (or ballistically similar .25). If I were carrying a .22lr in a shorter barrel firearm I would try some 60 grain Aguila SSS. My logic being that nothing is going to have a chance to get fast enough to reliably expand out of a short barrel. The heavier bullet should shed its momentum slower and penetrate better. The SSS has a reputation for tumbling (good AFTER striking the target) so I would make sure your barrel stabilizes it at the distances you are likley to shoot.
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