And now you know why I have issue with some of our LEO's that go running around throwing their weight around. They have have the same attitude.
John
Charles Askins, Jr,
- Thread starter THE PILGRIM
- Start date
And now you know why I have issue with some of our LEO's that go running around throwing their weight around. They have have the same attitude.
John
There was a Charles the third. He died as a child about 6 or 7 years old after being hit by a car. It was during WWII and Askins was overseas when it happened. The second son was in the Army during Viet Nam and I think was a chopper pilot. There was also a daughter who was allegedly an accomplished equestrian.
REM 3200
US Veteran
When I was stationed at Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio (mid to late 1970's) I used to shoot skeet with him at the range on post. I called him and invited him to join us and he did on a semi-regular basis.
mac2
Member
Wyatt Burp
Member
Askins does seem to take a lot of glee in describing his killings in "Unrepentant Sinner". As I recall, he wrote of ambushing a North Vietnamese mainly to test a .44 Magnum on human flesh. It seemed pretty wild scary being a B.P. in El Paso in those days as he describes it, too. He writes enthusiastically about shooting a couple smugglers who shot up his partners. Other guys, too. But if his killings were justified, would people think better of him now if he had just felt a little guilty about it?
OP
THE PILGRIM
Member
I think the problem that a lot of us have with Charles Askins Junior is he seems to go out of his way to kill people that he probably didn't need to. For one thing he was never actually assigned to a direct combat unit. Even when he was some type of advisor- observer he always seem to find some people to kill.
The other day I mentioned my good friend Milt. He was also Army Ordnance.
In Korea he in command of the three-man forward technical intelligence unit.
One day the local commanding general called him in and told him I'm reassigning you to infantry duty.
Milt told the general you do know that I'm on direct Department of the Army orders? The general told Milt, back there they got their priorities, out here I got my priorities. And out here I'm in command. That leads up to the story I told the other day when they were going house to house in North Korea.
Askin's "Pistol Shooter's Book" was the only handgunning book in the library when I was a kid...
My father went into the BP in 1940. I once asked him if he knew anything about Askins. He didn't have much to say, but neither was it complimentary.
I once read somewhere that Askins was not an S&W fan, and as the BP's then head pistolero, promoted the purchase of Colt revolvers.
My Dad's duty weapon in the late 1940s was a 4" Colt New Service and 158 grain RNL .38 Specials. He was not a gun guy and had small hands; hard to think of a bigger gun for a minimally effective cartridge than that.
I'd probably be a little browned off if I had to carry a clunk like that around all day, too.
My father went into the BP in 1940. I once asked him if he knew anything about Askins. He didn't have much to say, but neither was it complimentary.
I once read somewhere that Askins was not an S&W fan, and as the BP's then head pistolero, promoted the purchase of Colt revolvers.
My Dad's duty weapon in the late 1940s was a 4" Colt New Service and 158 grain RNL .38 Specials. He was not a gun guy and had small hands; hard to think of a bigger gun for a minimally effective cartridge than that.
I'd probably be a little browned off if I had to carry a clunk like that around all day, too.
Wyatt Burp
Member
It's strange that he praised the eight ton Colt New Service .38 Special, yet disparaged the 1917 .45 N.S. with it's half moon clips. But later praise the Colt 1911 in the same caliber. He did write of using a .44-40 N.S. to, yes, you guessed it. To shoot a smuggler in the back and joked about B.P. down river wondering who did it. This smuggler was apparently trying to wrestle the gun from him.
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I've read many articles by Col. Askins starting in the '50's. Guns magazine, Outdoor Life, and others. Never read his book "Unrepentant Sinner" because I didn't much care for his writings. All I know is Tom Gresham says he was one mean ***.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
I do have that book plus several more he wrote. I think I did eat up a lot of his writing when I was young but now that I have "Matured" my view of him is a lot different than it was 50 years ago when I thought it was all about being tough. I think most go through that phase, and hopefully it is just a phase. Maybe even he hopefully softened at the end. I see when it got right down to it he DIDNT take his own life "On his terms" as he had more than hinted he would do when the time came. If not, there just might be somewhere close to 32 people with a grudge meeting him that he cant kill again. Ya think?
I had an opportunity to meet him around 1980 at an NRA convention but over hearing his conversation with the kid behind the Pachmayr booth I decided to pass.
Bob Milek spent 10 days with me in Africa in the mid 80's and Askin's name came up Bob being with Peterson's Hunting magazine knew him well I will never forget the look of fear on his face when he said you don't want to mess with him he is a killer. He was genuinely afraid of the man.
A Pro Hunter I knew in those days claimed Askins came out every year to hunt buffalo with him and took great pleasure in shooting them in the most awkward locations just to see their reaction. I don't know how true the PHs stories were and I certainly hope a Rhodesian or Askins for that matter would not have executed an infant?
Ed Matunas is a very good friend now a retired writer and he knew Askins quite well He said Askins took great pleasure making comments simply for the shock value. For example when asked the best place to shoot someone he would respond in the back. He was very public about his killings and perhaps he wanted to project himself as a tough guy. Although Ed told me of an incident in Mexico where Askins was the first one to leave the bar and avoid a fight. When he was asked by Massad as to how many me he killed he quoted a line by John Wesley Hardin x number of men not counting XXX and XXX.
Bill Jorden was not that public about his shootings but amongst friends made light of it one favorite line was the trick is to shoot the Mexicans on their side of the border so you do not have to clean up.
Bob Milek spent 10 days with me in Africa in the mid 80's and Askin's name came up Bob being with Peterson's Hunting magazine knew him well I will never forget the look of fear on his face when he said you don't want to mess with him he is a killer. He was genuinely afraid of the man.
A Pro Hunter I knew in those days claimed Askins came out every year to hunt buffalo with him and took great pleasure in shooting them in the most awkward locations just to see their reaction. I don't know how true the PHs stories were and I certainly hope a Rhodesian or Askins for that matter would not have executed an infant?
Ed Matunas is a very good friend now a retired writer and he knew Askins quite well He said Askins took great pleasure making comments simply for the shock value. For example when asked the best place to shoot someone he would respond in the back. He was very public about his killings and perhaps he wanted to project himself as a tough guy. Although Ed told me of an incident in Mexico where Askins was the first one to leave the bar and avoid a fight. When he was asked by Massad as to how many me he killed he quoted a line by John Wesley Hardin x number of men not counting XXX and XXX.
Bill Jorden was not that public about his shootings but amongst friends made light of it one favorite line was the trick is to shoot the Mexicans on their side of the border so you do not have to clean up.
Wyatt Burp
Member
In his book he does talk of illegally helping a rancher cross the border into Mexico to retrieve his stolen herd. A noble task, it seems. But you can tell he's less interested in getting the cattle back as he is getting a chance to kill the cattle thieves which he and the rancher proceed to do. So, I guess THE PILGRIM has a point there as he mentioned a couple posts back here.
"The second son was in the Army during Viet Nam and I think was a chopper pilot."
IIRC, Bill Askins was a captain in the Marine Corps.
IIRC, Bill Askins was a captain in the Marine Corps.
Actually, that was Colonel Townsend Whelen..............1877 - 1961.
A lot of negative things are being said about him and I don't think he was a sweetheart, but he was one of the greatest law enforcement shooters of all time. He was a national champion with a shotgun and handgun and pretty darn good with a rifle also. There was no "fleeing felon" protection law in those days and a couple of the guys he shot in the back were trying to take his gun, and in the old days that would get you shot by most cops. It should also be noted that several men he killed in shootouts would likely have killed other LE officers had his abilities not been so good. Many of the experts who didn't have much good to say about him might also admit that if the chips were down... Askins would be their first pick to be at their side in a gunfight.
We are all looking at this thru "Modern eyes". We need to remember, "the past is like another country, they did things differently there". I had the opportunity to spend a couple of hours with Col. Askins at the first Bianchi Shoot in Columbia ,Mo. and found him to be very cordial and interesting. All my best, Joe.
cmort666
Member
A lot of what he describes doing would have been illegal in 2014, 1914, and indeed in 1814.
I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall him COMMITTING an armed robbery early in "Unrepentant Sinner". WHEN was that either legal or looked upon with favor by the general public... at least the ones who DIDN'T count themselves as fans of Jessie James or Bonnie & Clyde?
Early in my young life I served under, what I thought of then and quite frankly still do today, "hard" men. They were combat veterans of both WWII and Korea as well as 25 year vets of metro Law enforcement. Several of them had killed multiple "bad guys" and quite frankly they did not suffer any recriminations about doing it and did not appear to hesitate if they had to do it again. They did not talk about it but would offer sage advice about not holding back if you thought your life or the life of someone else was threatened. Again guys, my experience is already 45 years old and Askins' is even farther back. As I said above the past is different. Heck today a young child can be expelled from school for defending himself from a school yard bully. I am sure any of us who are on the far side of 60 had advice from our fathers to not take abuse from any bully and not back down from what needed to be done. If you apply "modern" standards to any of the 20's thru 50's lawmen, many of them would or could be thrown off the force and possibly/probably be sued or worse. This is not to say I agree with everything that was done, just that you need to put it all in perspective. One only has to read the reports and history of the Texas Rangers, the NYPD Stakeout Squad, the Hat Squad in LA , or for that matter the Gunners that Hoover brought into the FBI to go after and kill the bandits of the 30's. Askins was a man of his time. He most certainly could and would be in trouble today. As I said earlier if you have been around hard men I believe you might have a different understanding. This is my opinion and mine alone and I mean no disrespect to any of my Forum Friends and fellow posters in this thread, All my very best, Joe.
Wyatt Burp
Member
The best part of G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will" was him talking about being a new FBI agent and wondering about two old guys there who were obviously past retirement. He said they were two old time lawmen from Oklahoma and were still allowed to work because the were no nonsense gunmen and the first guys called in dangerous situations. They packed tuned up 5" S&W .357s and tutored Liddy who also bought such a gun, but 3 1/2". This was the early 60s I think.
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