Choosing Your Handguns in War

Flattop5

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This post about Patton got me thinking:
( http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/592724-general-patton.html ).


My late father was a Master Sergeant in the Korean War. He told me that he had told his superior officer that he could not shoot a 1911 worth sour apples. He asked if he could carry another type of sidearm. He was granted that option. He chose a .38 S&W revolver. Where he got it, I do not know. Did he get it in Korea? Did he order it from the states? I do not know. All I know is that it was a 4" K-frame, blue, with adjustable sights.

How common was it for U.S. troops to carry sidearms other than the standard 1911? Was that option common, or rare? I assume rare.



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I don't know about military rules on sidearms during the Korean War but I do know that Evaluators Ltd. was actively marketing the relatively new Combat Masterpiece revolver, as shown below. " Proven In Combat ".
Regards,
turnerriver
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If I remember correctly; privately owned sidearms were allowed up to the later Vietnam War, at which time the Army prohibited it. I don't have a clue about other branches


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My Father was a Tanker during Korea, he carried a nickel plated Colt Police Positive as his "personal weapon", he was not fond of the Grease Gun or the 1911. He did like the BAR, Garand, and and 30 Carbine however. He served in the Texas National Guard through the early 60s, and he had the old Colt during that time also.

I recall it road in the glove box of his old Chevy Pickup until the early 70s. Later on I asked him what became of it and he'd said he traded it off for a 22 rifle.

I wish I had it, it was definitely worn and had areas where the nickel had flaked off, but would have been priceless to me.
 
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Gen Patton ordered the revolver from S&W , Shooting USA video is on You Tube

Generals have privileges not extended to Master Sergeants and Master Sergeants have privileges not extended to privates.

No direct experience, but I've heard a lot of stories about families using creative ways to ship handguns to guys serving in Vietnam. A guy who was there said there was about anything you wanted available at the local markets.
 
Generals have privileges not extended to Master Sergeants and Master Sergeants have privileges not extended to privates.

No direct experience, but I've heard a lot of stories about families using creative ways to ship handguns to guys serving in Vietnam. A guy who was there said there was about anything you wanted available at the local markets.



That is still true. Back in 2004, a building contractor in Afghanistan decided he needed to be armed and went to one of the markets and found a 1911 that dated to 1916.

Of course, he couldn't bring it back to the States. :(
 
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My dad was called back to duty for the Korean conflict to serve on the admirals staff in command of the Air Force Pacific Fleet. He was issued 2 1911's and a 38 as personal armament and was allowed to keep one upon retirement. He chose the 38.
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My dad was in the pacific during WW2 as land based navy Air Corps. He said he was initially issued a M1 Carbine, that he felt was under powered. He rotated through a Thompson, a 1911, and 6.5 Arisaka carbine and eventually settled on a S&W revolver and a M3 grease gun. He said that once you were in country you seemed to be able to carry what ever you wanted. One Marine pilot he knew carried a Colt SAA in a shoulder holster.

A friend carried a Browning 1922 in Vietnam and managed to bring it home. He was an APC driver and liked the compactness.
 
As late as 1937... officers were expected to provide their own sidearms. My father's family bought the saber he was presented with at his ROTC Graduation. M1902 It has his initials engraved, I have it now. He didn't personally own a pistol, to my knowledge.
I don't know when policy changed.
 
I think they really clamped down on personal weapons during the Viet war, for social reasons that I can't address here. Moreover, Hollywood and Congress were gravitating toward gun control as a desired goal.

If you read books about America's wars, you can sometimes see what the authors saw, or carried themselves
Two quick examples are Ted Lawson's, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo and the several titles from the late Donald R. Burgett.
Lawson said that his B-25 crew had both issued and personal guns and knives. He had a .45, plus his wife's Colt .32 auto. No, he didn't say which make of .45 auto. (I saw the other thread where Ray in Rio speculated that it might have been a Singer.)

Burgett carried a nickel Colt .45 auto, a gift from his father, plus a P-38 captured soon after his paratroop regiment landed in Normandy. Some of them found a supply truck full of P-38's and grabbed them.

During surgery back in England, the wounded Burgett begged doctors not to take his guns, emphasizing that they were his own and meant a great deal to him. A senior doc had them unloaded and hidden under sheets as he was wheeled into surgery. I think he still owned both until his recent death. He also commented on another man or two who carried personal arms. But one lost a nice rifle after being wounded. Burgett said that he carried an issued shoulder arm, as it was more likely to be damaged or lost in battle, esp. if the bearer was wounded and evacuated. He preferred the Garand, as it'd kill with a single torso shot, not true of the .30 carbine in many cases. He found the Thompson too heavy and too short in range. He was issued one as a sergeant/squad leader, but swapped it out to an impressionable private for his Garand.

I think officers could own their pistols until pretty recently.In his series of books about aviator Jake Grafton, former A-6 Intruder pilot and attorney Stephen Coonts armed Grafton with a S&W M-19. He owned an old M-1911 handed down in the family, but didn't carry it in war zones. I think other pilots had personal guns. See the movie of his, Flight of the Intruder, too. I think he carried the same M-19 as Grafton did. Coonts said that pilots had pistol lockers in their cabins. That may have applied to all officers on his carrier.

Gun writer Gene Gangarossa said that he wore a P-38 as a Naval helicopter crewman. I believe that aircrew could carry what they wanted. May not have applied to all carriers.

I read an article by an AF officer who was told to bring his own sidearm to Vietnam, as the unit was short of them.

Famous author Robt. C. Ruark was issued a .45 auto in the Navy and escaped with it and a typewriter, for which the USN eventually billed him. He also acquired a P-38 in Italy, with which he killed a German soldier in an alley.

My mother once had a refrigerator repaired by a former WW II tanker. He told me that everyone in the tank had not only a .45, but some German pistol. He kept his Luger after the war.

Even when regulations forbade personal guns, local commanders sometimes turned a blind eye to them, knowing that they were good for the men's morale.

In Iraq, my son had to carry issued M-4 carbines and a Beretta M-9. Later, going back as a contractor, he could carry what he could find or was in his employer's armory. He chose a Browning Hi-Power MK III 9mm, an M-4, and bought a H-K G-3 7.62mm rifle. which he had to leave behind. He had used a Browning 9mm since his early teens and was very familiar with it. The MK III he had in Iraq had Belgian markings, not US commercial ones. I've seen it in closeup photos. He often wore it on his vest, where it was handy to draw while seated in a vehicle. That way, he could easily shoot a terrorist running up to throw a grenade into the car.

Once, when he wasn't in the vehicle, a jihadi ran up and knifed his Kurdish machine gunner in the leg. The wound was so severe that the man had to leave the job.
 
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In RVn we were allowed to carry anything we wanted as long as you were carrying your issue weapon. For most that was a M16 and most came up with a pistol or revolver on their own if they weren't issued one. 12g shotguns were popular too. It was a hassle to bring home any US made weapon. Usually if a guy had a non issue side arm he sold it or gave it to a buddy when he DEROSed. They were having racial troubles at the big bases. When we came in from the field we had to put all our weapons on
our poncho in front of us. All firearms, explosives, knives and flares. The supply Sargent held them until we went back out. I only had gun trouble once. I was transferred to another outfit and I had a unauthorized Thompson in my duffle bag. They were hard to come by and I had traded a Chicom pistol for it. MPs at airport were checking orders and looking for guys toting dope. They found the Thompson and confiscated it because it wasn't issue. The truth was the MP wanted it for himself.
 
While I cannot quote the regulation, in the '70s use of personal weapons by soldiers for official purposes was specifically prohibited. I can't speak for previous or recent policy, or for other services.

The farther from the flagpole, the more freedom one typically has, and as been observed, this has always included choice of weapons. In US SMALL ARMS OF WORLD WAR TWO, (Howard R Crouch, SCS Publications ISBN 0 9613581 0 6) on p. 118 a rifleman states "We all carried pistols...the offices would warn us not to carry them to rear areas or rest camps as they would probably be confiscated."
 
I have a copy of a memo somewhere that required all pilots, aircrew and maintenance personnel in HAL-3 (helicopter attack squadron light) to turn in all personal side arms. Don't think compliance was high.
 
I didn't mean to make it look like official policy to carry personal or unauthorized weapons. It was unofficial policy to look the other way as long as there were not other problems caused by personal carry. SOP was your rifle was secured when in a big base compound. The troops that were stationed in these places had issue m16 that was kept in a Arms room and only got them for guard and travel. That's where troubles started with unaurthorized weapons not in the bush.
 
Thank the good Lord my war fighting days are over.

Yet, if I was called to go into combat I wouldn't be worrying about my handgun. I would want the best rifle, and any handgun would be a last ditch proposition.

In other words, if I have to rely on my handgun I am already pretty well in a mess.
 
My pal in the Air Force had a Police Positive which his folks sent to him. He carried it under his fatigue blouse in the ville after he had a camera strap cut off him. Sold it when he left. Said that he had a short shotgun in the cab of his dump truck.
 
I never served in the military but my Colt .45 Government Model travels with me in "Condition One". If a handguner can't shoot a Government Model well, he should be seeking out a carbine of some sort. It's a better tool, but not as handy.
I have over 20,000 rounds through this one and can't imagine a better tool to fight your way to your rifle or shotgun.

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