Choosing Your Handguns in War

[HardToHandle]

My best friend's father was an Army Captain in Combat Engineers in the Pacific in WWII, who told us he couldn't hit a thing with his issue 1911, so he chose to carry his personal Colt Woodsman in his 1911 issue holster through the war. "It wasn't very powerful, but I could hit what I aimed at with it" was his comment.

Growing up, my Dad would always take our 1911-like Crossman BB pistols to Guard Summer Camp. That way they looked in uniform with a handgun in the holster, but did not worry about losing a controlled item.

During his trip to Iraq, no BB guns. He said he temporarily traded his M9 Beretta for an M16A2 during a long convoy. He said that felt much more reassuring than the worn out Beretta.

Me? Amazing what will fit under a BDU top in a IWB. The ACU tailoring was a bit more fitted around the waist and shoulders.

I really appreciate the Guard units in certain states able to conceal carry now. I feel more confident in those facilities. That concept has not taken hold in the Title 10 military yet.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, I suspect most "war trophies" were brought home by rear echelon types who knew the ins and outs of packing and shipping under false pretexts. Once the drug problem started the good old days of shipping things home in your duffle bag ended.

 

[Ray]

Ray, please scan and post. I'm one of several forum members who enjoy interpretive challenges like this.

Hi DCWilson after quite a time here´s the scan from Ted Lawson´s book
Regards, Ray

 

[Texas Star]

Hi DCWilson after quite a time here´s the scan from Ted Lawson´s book
Regards, Ray

Ray-

Thanks. But I think what many of us were hoping for was a scan of the page where the author described his guns and those of his fellow aircrew.

Can you post that? I want especially to see what he wrote about Ellen's gun.

But thanks for this present display. I note the dedication to those airmen who didn't survive the mission.

 

[Ray]

Well I´ll try to search the book to find out these details, scan the pages and post them, or to transcript relevant passages from the book verbatim and post them here. Regards, Ray

 

[Ray]

Quotes from Lawson´s book:

1 - Pg # 47 : "We were one-man arsenals.Each of us was given at least one .45, a clip of ammunition, a hunting knife, flashlight, emergency rations, morphine,sterilized bandages, holsters and straps to hold these things on us, a canteen, compass and life jacket".

2 - Pg # 74 : " McClure placed our .45´s and their holsters behind our seats.The .25 Ellen has given me was in my shoulder holster, under my shirt ".

3 - Pg # 84 : " I handed Ellen´s gun to Thatcher and told him to hide it ".

4 - Pg # 99 : " When we finished with the hot water ( given to them to drink by the Chinese), Charlie ( A guerrilla chief who probably saved Lawson and his crew´s lives ) reached over and started to take the .45 or Ellen´s .25 out of the two holsters Thatcher wore.Thatcher was very proud of his .45 and I had asked him to take good care of Ellen´s .25. So he wrenched away from Charlie while a sudden murmur of disapproval buzzed up from the Guerrillas ".

5 - Pg # 101 : " We lay in the bottom of the boat, looking up at the blue dome of the perfect afternoon.After a while one of the guerrillas reached out towards Thatcher .45 and I heard Thatcher say - Cut it out ! - but the guerrilla didn´t want the gun.He had a good German type automatic, as well as his rifle. It developed that he wanted only to exchange one of his bullets for one of Thatcher´s ".

6 - Pg # 151: " I gave him ( Koo-S- ken a Chinese national) Ellen´s gun that night.It was rusty by now, but he seemed to appreciate it very much ".

7- Pg# 164 : " Manch ( Shorty Manch, Bob Gray´s co- pilot) was probably the most heavily armed chutist who ever jumped.He went out with two .45´s , a .44 caliber rifle which his folks in Virginia sent him just before we left the States, a .22 automatic, a Luger , extra clips of ammunition , a hunting knife , a Bowie knife and axe".


I think that cover all gun related material written in Ted Lawson´s book "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"

Regards, Ray

 

[Muley Gil]

"... a .44 caliber rifle which his folks in Virginia sent him just before we left the States..."

Ain't that sumptin'! A pilot armed with a 1892 or possibly a 1873 Winchester or a Marlin 1894 .44-40 in the Pacific Theater!!

 

[Texas Star]

Today in the Air Force, you can choose any sidearm you want...

So long as it's a Beretta's M9 in 9mm x 19 PARA NATO!!!

Doesn't OSI issue SIG P-228's, called M-11?

And those new SIG P-320's should be along soon. I think I'd rather have the M-9, if in good condition.

 

[amazingflapjack]

S&W revolvers were available in VN-typically a 4" M-10-but others as well. They were available from the Air Force-civilians employed in country (P.A. & E), and the "white mice"=the VN police. I carried one, as did most of the guys I worked with. The old beater 1911's were inaccurate, dangerous, and undependable. They were also hard to carry concealed. There had been so much going on in VN for so long that you were apt to see almost anything. One of my friends had a baby browning tucked away. Our OIC carried a Thompson, and we had an assortment of "sawed off" stuff due to our operating in gun jeeps. The Army was mute, at least where I was, about "unauthorized" ordinance. We basically carried what we wanted.

 

[Texas Star]

Quotes from Lawson´s book:

1 - Pg # 47 : "We were one-man arsenals.Each of us was given at least one .45, a clip of ammunition, a hunting knife, flashlight, emergency rations, morphine,sterilized bandages, holsters and straps to hold these things on us, a canteen, compass and life jacket".

2 - Pg # 74 : " McClure placed our .45´s and their holsters behind our seats.The .25 Ellen has given me was in my shoulder holster, under my shirt ".

3 - Pg # 84 : " I handed Ellen´s gun to Thatcher and told him to hide it ".

4 - Pg # 99 : " When we finished with the hot water ( given to them to drink by the Chinese), Charlie ( A guerrilla chief who probably saved Lawson and his crew´s lives ) reached over and started to take the .45 or Ellen´s .25 out of the two holsters Thatcher wore.Thatcher was very proud of his .45 and I had asked him to take good care of Ellen´s .25. So he wrenched away from Charlie while a sudden murmur of disapproval buzzed up from the Guerrillas ".

5 - Pg # 101 : " We lay in the bottom of the boat, looking up at the blue dome of the perfect afternoon.After a while one of the guerrillas reached out towards Thatcher .45 and I heard Thatcher say - Cut it out ! - but the guerrilla didn´t want the gun.He had a good German type automatic, as well as his rifle. It developed that he wanted only to exchange one of his bullets for one of Thatcher´s ".

6 - Pg # 151: " I gave him ( Koo-S- ken a Chinese national) Ellen´s gun that night.It was rusty by now, but he seemed to appreciate it very much ".

7- Pg# 164 : " Manch ( Shorty Manch, Bob Gray´s co- pilot) was probably the most heavily armed chutist who ever jumped.He went out with two .45´s , a .44 caliber rifle which his folks in Virginia sent him just before we left the States, a .22 automatic, a Luger , extra clips of ammunition , a hunting knife , a Bowie knife and axe".


I think that cover all gun related material written in Ted Lawson´s book "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"

Regards, Ray

I wonder how Manch held onto all that stuff if he parachuted.

Ray, thanks for looking that up!

 

[Ray]

Just a follow up on Manch´s jump :" Before he (Manch) jumped that night of April 18th, Shorty saw to it that every weapon was in its proper place on him.He was very well weighted down,but he couldn´t beat the thought of going out without some Baby Ruths. He stuffed a lot of them in his shirt , open at the collar, and dropped down into the night.
His chute opened with a loud report and jerked him so badly that it shucked the baby Ruths right out their wrappers and out of his shirt. Shorty just molted candy in mid-air. But, worst of all, for Shorty, his grip was broken on his rifle and three of his four pistols ".
Lawson don´t say which guns were lost.

So it seems to have been a shower of guns and candies into the China sea !

Regards, Ray

 

[seldon14]

This thread is absolutely fascinating. Makes me want to find as many of these accounts as possible and compile them into a book.

 

[jspick]

My father in law carried a colt 1917 DA 45 in WWII. That DA45 was issued to his uncle in WWI. I now have that 45 and shoot it once in a while. It is very tight and in very good condition.

 

[Texas Star]

My father in law carried a colt 1917 DA 45 in WWII. That DA45 was issued to his uncle in WWI. I now have that 45 and shoot it once in a while. It is very tight and in very good condition.

I'm so glad that you still have that Colt.

Is the finish blue or Parkerized? Mine was the latter and all I've seen were, but that may well have been refinishing during WW II.

 

[BigBill]

I took a co worker who was in nam shooting he couldn't hit a broad side of a barn. I taught him how to shoot a 1911.

 

[jspick]

I'm so glad that you still have that Colt.

Is the finish blue or Parkerized? Mine was the latter and all I've seen were, but that may well have been refinishing during WW II.

It is parkerized. It is all original.

 

[29-1]

On the jump onto Point Salines we were taking fire from the Cubans in the hills on the north side of the runway. I had landed just off the tarmac in a muddy area on the south side of the runway. I got out of my harness and ran to some cover and was about to return fire with my CAR-15 (mine was a Vietnam era XM177). Just before I pulled the trigger I noticed that the muzzle was covered with a big clump of mud. I pull out my 1911 and sat it on top my ruck while I dug out my cleaning kit to rod the barrel. Luckily, there were other Rangers to return fire and I was able to get my rifle back into operation without having to resort to the pistol. Never had to fire a pistol in combat but it was always comforting to know it was there just in case.

SRG, for the NARP folks here on the forum, jumping at 400 feet in the dark didn't allow you much time to figure out your PLF so bet you lawn darted. Just messing with you. I remember doing the same thing a few times myself. Pucker factor goes up considerably when your primary means of remaining on earth is inop . You Rangers did awesome that day in particular. Lost a good friend, CPT Mike Ritz, 82nd, there the next day. Thank you for your service Ranger!

 

[JohnZMI]

I was an Army helicopter pilot and instructor pilot- when I got orders in 1963 for VN, I was told I'd be issued an Air Force .38 Special revolver when I got there, as there were no 1911's available. That idea didn't appeal to me, so I bought one of the very first Ruger .44 Magnum Super Blackhawks made at a gun shop near the SF airport and stuffed it in my bag (commercial charter flight).

I carried it in a shoulder rig while I was there, and ammo was readily available any time anyone went to Da Nang. Frame loosened up, and Ruger sent me a new set of screws with Nylok inserts that they didn't have when the pistol was built. Brought it home with me in 1964 and finally sold it a couple of years ago.

 

[tenntex32]

My father in law carried a colt 1917 DA 45 in WWII. That DA45 was issued to his uncle in WWI. I now have that 45 and shoot it once in a while. It is very tight and in very good condition.

As a M1917 collector that Colt looks too nice to have been carried in two wars! It doesn't strike me as a parkerized example, especially if your father-in-law got it directly from his uncle who carried it in WWI. (It could be the lighting in the pic though.)

I can't see your father-in-law or his uncle turning it it for it to get parkerized/arsenal reworked……..and then getting the exact revolver back! It may still be the original finish which was rather course. (The original factory finish is an obvious brushing with blue applied over.)

Unfortunately I have no guns with family war provenance in my collection, so you are very fortunate.

Thanks for sharing it, and more pics please when you get a chance.
Dale

 

[tenntex32]

I was an Army helicopter pilot and instructor pilot- when I got orders in 1963 for VN, I was told I'd be issued an Air Force .38 Special revolver when I got there, as there were no 1911's available. That idea didn't appeal to me, so I bought one of the very first Ruger .44 Magnum Super Blackhawks made at a gun shop near the SF airport and stuffed it in my bag (commercial charter flight).

I carried it in a shoulder rig while I was there, and ammo was readily available any time anyone went to Da Nang. Frame loosened up, and Ruger sent me a new set of screws with Nylok inserts that they didn't have when the pistol was built. Brought it home with me in 1964 and finally sold it a couple of years ago.

Not that I am judging...………..but why would you sell the firearm you wore in-country?

That hog leg would be going in the casket with me...….in the same shoulder rig you wore it in!

I bet you got lots of comments about it while there.

Dale