Chronographed- Underwood 38 Spl +P 158 gr cast SWC

I encourage others to spend the time, effort and finances to test ammunition as some of us do on this great site. Unfounded criticism and under handed comments are never appreciated from those of us who take our hobby seriously. A little thank you once in awhile - as many do here with their “likes” and positive comments, is worth more than the dollars expended in these tests at least for me…
 
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Those loads might be ok in a K frame but I would think that they might be on the maximum load side.
Just that the fps listed don't match old data for the 38 that I have.

After loosing a M19-5 to magnum loads, I tend to take it easier on the hand guns that I now own.

Here is some old 38 data that I have logged, over the years;

1931, 38/44 Outdoorsman 158 @ 1150fps ( hvy 44 frame )
1934 357 8 3/4", 158 @ 1512fps
1936 38 spl. 158 lead, 825-950fps with a 4"
1972 FBI W38SPD+P, 4" 951fps at 21,500psi

The factory 158 +P Winchester load in a K frame never came close to 1241fps, in a 38 special loading, with the data that I have at hand.

Yes I can get a 38 case up to over 1200fps in my L frame, but I don't
keep them around, do to the danger of that round ending up in a inferior revolver or a family members "J" frame, would be very harmful.

Hay, if they work for you, great.
 
Unless someone can run pressure tests on this ammunition, we just can't say for sure. Two points:

First, as noted above, this load has a VERY low ESD/SD. That is good, not only for it's influence on accuracy, but because it allows the load to get closer to maximums without going over the line.

Second: If a load can be made to maintain its maximum pressure over more of the length of the barrel, it can get more out of a charge than a load that shows a sharp peak with lows on either side of that peak. I seem to remember one of the early boutique loaders describing that as part of their secret sauce (sadly, can't remember where).

I only have experience with one Underwood load (9mm +P 124-grain FMJ flatpoint), so I can't provide any data. That ammo seemed to be of good quality and paired great with my long-slide Glock.

If I had a .38 service revolver (Model 10 or equivalent) in good condition, I think I would trust a small amount of this as a field load.

Just my armchair opinion!
 
Those loads might be ok in a K frame but I would think that they might be on the maximum load side.
Just that the fps listed don't match old data for the 38 that I have.



Here is some old 38 data that I have logged, over the years;


1936 38 spl. 158 lead, 825-950fps with a 4"

1972 FBI W38SPD+P, 4" 951fps at 21,500psi

.

1936 .38 special 158 Lead at 825-950 fps with 4 in

1973 Plus P 38 special 158 lead (LHP) 4in at 951 fps

Standard 1936 38 load ~same as 1972 38 +P load

Why the jump in "+P"?
 
The jump has been explained the same way numerous times over the decades-- their ability to accurately measure pressure is the reason.

I'm not from the 'save weak guns' camp, especially with regards to frame size as S&W has made many tens of thousands of J-frame .357 Magnums.

I'm from the camp that realizes the fundamental gain of agreed upon industry standards and how valuable these standards are. And if it's the year 2056 and you can make a .38 Special+P send a lead/copper slug of 158 grains clock 1,200+ in a 5-inch barrel then hell yeah, propellant technology is awesome and I love it.

But it isn't 2056 yet, it's 2022 and that technology doesn't exist... so it really just looks like the ammo manufacturer is lying when they have labeled this a .38 Special+P.
 
...but who says SAAMI is correct in their pressure limits... Remember with STANDARD .38 Special and .44 Special loads they are playing to the WEAKEST guns ever made. There isn't even a +P .44 Special rating...why...there are FAR more modern .44 Specials out there being actually shot every day that can easily take 25-30k psi loads.

And again back to the 9mm question...if the gun makers produce 9mm J-frames and have ZERO issues with the longevity issue of the guns then maybe SAMMI is incorrect in their 20k pressure limit on +P .38 Special...should it not be whatever 9mm is in the guns so produced in 9mm?

Bob
 
SAAMI is the sanctioning body, so they publish the spec's (and pressure is but one part of it) and then every gun manufacturer that chooses to follow and every ammunition manufacturer that chooses to follow does exactly that.

I'm not sure -WHO- sets these specifications, but SAAMI keeps them and makes them available so that participants can work within them.

I'm not sure why so many don't see the value in this. Insert something about a horse and water.
 
...but who says SAAMI is correct in their pressure limits... Remember with STANDARD .38 Special and .44 Special loads they are playing to the WEAKEST guns ever made. There isn't even a +P .44 Special rating...why...there are FAR more modern .44 Specials out there being actually shot every day that can easily take 25-30k psi loads.

And again back to the 9mm question...if the gun makers produce 9mm J-frames and have ZERO issues with the longevity issue of the guns then maybe SAMMI is incorrect in their 20k pressure limit on +P .38 Special...should it not be whatever 9mm is in the guns so produced in 9mm?

Bob
There is no right or wrong with SAAMI pressures, they are just a standard. You are free to do what you wish with your guns and your ammo just be sure not to hurt anyone but yourself if something goes wrong.

As for that old story about gun frames and pressures, sure, a M10 is on the same frame as the M19 BUT the cylinders have different heat treating to accommodate the higher pressures in the M19. Same with the J frame in .38 Special and 9mm. The higher heat treat costs more and sure, it may be a very small difference but the bean counters are looking to save fractions of a cent to maximize profits.
 
I had not been under the impression that this was the consensus-- I mean on the subject of heat treatment. Have we heard something from the inside?

I agree that they aim to save money in the process but there is also the idea of streamlining production which would support the argument that all the cylinders are heat treated exactly the same.

I've always been very interested in this part of the conversation.
 
Really value these discussions. Also tremendously appreciate willingness and generosity of those who test/chronograph various loads and then publicize results of their explorations.

In hunting and self-defense, many have come to rely on more compact devices and more powerful loads. Thus decrease of mass with increase of stress. This is part of useful evolution.

Contrary to that, of course there are multiple restrictions, both overt and often unstated. E.g.: revolver strength; that all loads must be calculated for the Monday morning or Friday afternoon (even modern) hardware at minimum of strength of materials and ditto workmanship; manufacturing variations in ammunitions where components, such as cases vary in “perfection”; MAP, maximum average pressure, varies according to the equipment quality, QA/QC discipline, multiple component variations; potentially poor storage that causes ingredient deterioration; all resulting in potentially disastrous equipment minimum with over the top ammunition.

Notwithstanding, many talented and disciplined reloaders (which does not include the entire spectrum of reloaders!) have long sought better results for higher performance. Intelligent discussions on the subject, such as here presently, are welcomed by many of us.

But are understandably not for a. the constitutionally cautious, a righteous and worthy group, (such as my own father), and b. never, ever, for the careless.

These views are my own, and YMMV. Reiterated thanks to those who carefully test and share results of their explorations in known-safe hardware.
 
I had not been under the impression that this was the consensus-- I mean on the subject of heat treatment. Have we heard something from the inside?

I agree that they aim to save money in the process but there is also the idea of streamlining production which would support the argument that all the cylinders are heat treated exactly the same.

I've always been very interested in this part of the conversation.

I doubt there is any difference in the heat treating of a 60, 640, 642, 638, 649 cylinder and a 9mm 940.

If you look in The Standard Catalog #3, under Model 60 and 649, which were being produced in 1990, the 60-7 and 649-2 both list "Heat Treated Package" in 1990.. The 940 came out the following year...taking bets that every J-frame using a stainless cylinder after 1990 uses the same cylinder...only makes economic and liability sense...

Bob
 
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I asked this same question on another forum. Wonder how they are getting that velocity within saami specs. I haven't chronyned the loads yet but did pull one. Not sure if I may have lost a few grains in the process, but here is a pic of the powder.

Possibly Power Pistol??

Rosewood
 

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I have over 10 lbs of SR 4756 powder . Guess I need to get it out and work up some 38-44 loads . When it was available I used quite a bit in my 44 magnum loads . I still have about the same amount of IMR 7625 as well . IMR 7625 has always been my sisters favorite in her 41 magnum , nickel 4" barrel .
Interesting side note . She lives now in Minnesota , a permit is for 5 yrs . It was time to renew and they found a traveling instructor that comes to where you live . He does the class work and the shooting part . She brought out her 41 just to show him . He ended up firing 12 rounds (my hand loads ) and absolutely fell in love with the 41 magnum . He had never shot one before . We have another 41 convert . Regards Paul
 
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As a matter of fact I do have the #8 Speer . The start loads have always been a good place to start . Thanks Erich , Regards Paul
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JK - go get 'em, amigo! :cool:
 
OK everyone. You can choose to believe them or not, your choice.

I sent email to Underwood Ammo via their contact page on 10/7/22.
The question:
Is your ammo, namely your .38 Special +P ammo SAAMI compliant?

On 10/9/22 I received return email.
The answer:
Yes, all of our ammunition with the exception of +P+ is within SAAMI specs.

So, like I said above, you can choose to believe them or not, your choice.
 
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