Chronographed- Underwood 38 Spl +P 158 gr cast SWC

[rosewood]

The answer:
Yes, all of our ammunition with the exception of +P+ is within SAAMI specs.

That sounds an awful lot like a canned answer when they say "all". They may very well be legit, I have just been unable to find any published data within 200 FPS of what they are getting. They must have some magic powder, or the published data is wrong across the board (which is entirely possible).

I really want to know how they are doing it so I can safely replicate it myself.

Rosewood

 

[cmj8591]

Unfounded criticism and under handed comments are never appreciated from those of us who take our hobby seriously.

Unfounded criticism and underhanded comments are why I read these posts! I can read about reloading anywhere! I think your observations are very good and are probably right on point. Unless they are operating on the other side of a black hole, it's no secret how they are getting those velocities. They are running those loads at or near 357 pressures. Nothing they are doing is going to make a gun in good repair go kaboom. Gun makers are making small frame, alloy guns that shoot 357's all day long. Does anyone think they didn't test to see how the guns hold up? Now if you want to shoot this stuff in your pre war, K frame, I hope you know how to fix end shake and have a bag of replacement parts available. I'm very, very sure Underwood took all of this into consideration when they did their liability risk assessment. Again, does anyone think they would put this stuff on the market without considering how it was going to be used? I think it's great that people do experimentation and post the results on the forums. Within the context of the internet, and it's very important to keep everything in context, it is a great way to get ideas and learn things.

 

[FLJoe]

So I have a modern alloy J frame (642) that I always carry with me. I had run across this Underwood ammo on line, and bought a single box, just to have a high powered load I could carry when I'm in the woods, to defend against a four-legged Florida aggressor. I've never even fired one from my gun, but I suppose if I need to save my life with a cylinder of them, the gun will probably hold up just fine. I don't expect anyone plans on shooting a lot of these through any gun, given the price they sell for. Hopefully Underwood is correct in their assertions that they're compliant with +P pressures.

Yes, I'd like a steel frame 357 for the woods walks or rides, but I don't have one, so this seems like a decent emergency alternative. Anyway, to the OP, thanks for testing this and posting.

 

[Cdog]

Propellants have come a long way. There’s many newer rifle propellants capable of producing higher velocities with lower pressures available to handloading community today. While there may be some here privy to non canister powder used by major manufacturers, I’m not.

I have no experience with Underwood or other boutique manufacturers products, but I don’t doubt what is possible today.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

...but who says SAAMI is correct in their pressure limits...

The entire shooting sports industry. That's why SAAMI exists.

OK everyone. You can choose to believe them or not, your choice...

Sure, I believe them. They have a great deal to lose and little to gain by lying.

 

[rosewood]

The entire shooting sports industry. That's why SAAMI exists.

Sure, I believe them. They have a great deal to lose and little to gain by lying.

I know a specific company that had rounds they touted for deer hunting. They published the velocities about 200 FPS more than they really were so they would meet the hunting requirement. They assumed know one would test it and they didn't. Once that requirement went away, they showed the real velocity on the box. So yes, some companies do lie. Granted, their lie wasn't dangerous.

Rosewood

 

[Sevens]

So I have a modern alloy J frame (642) that I always carry with me. I had run across this Underwood ammo on line, and bought a single box, just to have a high powered load I could carry when I'm in the woods, to defend against a four-legged Florida aggressor. I've never even fired one from my gun, but I suppose if I need to save my life with a cylinder of them, the gun will probably hold up just fine. I don't expect anyone plans on shooting a lot of these through any gun, given the price they sell for. Hopefully Underwood is correct in their assertions that they're compliant with +P pressures.

Yes, I'd like a steel frame 357 for the woods walks or rides, but I don't have one, so this seems like a decent emergency alternative. Anyway, to the OP, thanks for testing this and posting.

Okay I think that fundamentally, this is a fine idea. In practice however, I think it's a horrendous idea if you haven't tried at least one cylinder full of them.

I'm not saying that your cylinder will burst or your frame will stretch. However, powerful ammo with a heavy bullet in a very light frame gun is the textbook recipe for crimp jump. If you have a bullet jump crimp in a revolver, that revolver becomes a club until you can use tools to make it work again.

A fine method to test this very specifically would be to take one round and put a black sharpie swipe on the case head so that it's obvious. Load 5 rounds in to the cylinder including that marked round. Shoot four of those rounds, do NOT shoot the marked round. Eject the empties, shoot four more and leave the marked round for last. Eject all and compare the unfired marked round with other new rounds to ensure the bullet hasn't crept forward at all. If it's still locked in place then it's likely good to go.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

While 38SPL HV's data shows us how much more velocity the Underwood ammo delivers over what most other companies show can make you wonder so I can't blame anyone for their skepticism.

A new question, if Underwood and Buffalo Bore ammo is with in SAAMI spec limits why hasn't either joined SAAMI? Double Tap has but not those two.

Again, thanks to 38SPL HV for sharing his data with us and sparking such a good discussion. Unfortunately we did derail his thread (including myself) so I apologize for that.

 

[Nevada Ed]

One has to know that what was..........
is now, watered down for safety reasons per guns and legal matters.

There IS a maximum fps and pressure that revolvers CAN meet, without danger
to the shooters of this gun

However this "Maximum" safe load has been put under the table, by people
that do not want to pay out BIG $$$ , in case something goes wrong.

A 96% load will work in most guns that are standard in materials.

A few companies that study powders and their pressures, understand
how far they can push the "Envelope" to get a safe, "Maximum" loads
in the pistols and revolvers, used in todays times, that meet SAMMI specs.

I will shoot ANY ammo out of my rifles or short guns.........
with the help of my chrony, with the first 3-5 rounds.

 

[FLJoe]

Okay I think that fundamentally, this is a fine idea. In practice however, I think it's a horrendous idea if you haven't tried at least one cylinder full of them.

I'm not saying that your cylinder will burst or your frame will stretch. However, powerful ammo with a heavy bullet in a very light frame gun is the textbook recipe for crimp jump. If you have a bullet jump crimp in a revolver, that revolver becomes a club until you can use tools to make it work again.

A fine method to test this very specifically would be to take one round and put a black sharpie swipe on the case head so that it's obvious. Load 5 rounds in to the cylinder including that marked round. Shoot four of those rounds, do NOT shoot the marked round. Eject the empties, shoot four more and leave the marked round for last. Eject all and compare the unfired marked round with other new rounds to ensure the bullet hasn't crept forward at all. If it's still locked in place then it's likely good to go.

Good advice.

 

[Sevens]

A new question, if Underwood and Buffalo Bore ammo is with in SAAMI spec limits why hasn't either joined SAAMI? Double Tap has but not those two.

I believe that Buffalo Bore puts a LOT of thought and engineering in to their products, these guys were hardcore enthusiasts before they became a business and I think their product is right up near the absolute top for quality.

However at the same time, they also show a penchant for spitting on SAAMI standards when they wish to, and their ".380 Auto+P" is always the fastest and easiest example of it.

If you are playing by long established industry standards, i.e., SAAMI, then .380 Auto+P doesn't exist.

Again, thanks to 38SPL HV for sharing his data with us and sparking such a good discussion. Unfortunately we did derail his thread (including myself) so I apologize for that.

Yeah I just don't agree. It's a great discussion and I don't see it off any rails. If we don't comment on the results that he was good enough to share with us, it isn't even a discussion. Lots of great discussion in here. Not derailed at all.

 

[FLJoe]

Sorry, double post

 

[FLJoe]

Good advice.

Yesterday I tried this test to see if this ammo will work safely through my 642. I can say that I saw no crimp jump at all after one full cylinder, and all rounds fired perfectly, though just a bit high at 12 yards. I can also say that I stopped the test after one cylinder because the stuff is so strong it felt like someone was hitting my hand with a hammer. My pad of my right hand still hurts this morning.

I've never considered myself recoil sensitive at all, and have never been bothered a bit by any other 158 grain +P in that gun. This particular gun has Altamont wood grips, so there's no cushioning at all. Holy cow does this Underwood stuff let off with some power. I'll never shoot it again unless I have to, and if I'm going to load it in a 642 for walks in the woods, it's going to be in one with good rubber grips.

 

[rosewood]

FYI, I shot 1 of the underwoods through my 4" model 67 and it was 1240 FPS.

Rosewood

 

[BE Mike]

I would guess that maximum pressures are based upon a shooter possibly firing rounds through a S&W M&P Victory model, not a relatively newer variety of revolvers.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I am a beleiver that SAMMI might have held back a little on what the maximum pressures that a revolver can take
but in a way, that is a good thing for all of us and our guns that we shoot.

I do beleive that there are powders that will get very high fps out of the 38 special case
and on 5/25/2013 I loaded up my M49 with a 158 lead bullet with some slow burning powder
and sent three across my chrony to see what the "FBI load" would do.

The third load out of the short 1.8" barrel was cooking at 971fps.

I took the other two rounds back home and pulled the bullets and added that this was a K frame load, only, in my log books.

There are "Atomic loads" out there for you to try out, but I willl stick to
fps that is ment for my revovles and their spec's, if J frames.

I have a L frame for "Watch this" type of loads.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I'll need to dig out my old physics textbook, but I seem to remember that pressure (and other risk) decreases proportionately as the number of lawyers increases.

Perhaps the exception would be the result of an underpowered factory certified squib...?

Cheers!

 

[WR Moore]

I've had a few pleasant velocity surprises in my decades of handloading and yes, there are more powders available than there were in days of yore. However, when I see the "meets SAAMI specs" claim, I have to wonder. That wonder is which SAAMI pressure limit. There are three.

MAP is the pressure that ammo is supposed to be loaded to. In the case of .38 Spl, standard pressure is 17K with either CUP or piezo-electric PSI. Most ammo companies are loading to a velocity spec below that limit. Certainly every round isn't going to hit that pressure.

However, there's also a higher value that a given sample mean isn't supposed to exceed-my references are a couple of floors below, so I don't have the acronym or that pressure limit handy.

Then, there's the YOU'RE NEVER SUPPOSED TO EXCEED THIS PRESSURE LEVEL! limit.

STANAG 4090 for the 9 mm cartridge is less picky. "The corrected peak chamber pressure shall not exceed 37,000 psi radial copper and no pressure shall exceed 42,700 psi."

So, there's lot of room in SAAMI for people to play games with.

 

[Nevada Ed]

It all depends on the quality and condition of the gun that you are shooting.

The 38 special has a standard load, +P load and some companies that put out +P+ ammo
if you think or have data from the company that your gun is made to use it.

The 9mm also has these "Three" standards of loads from companies, plus
for those that push the envelope, there is also "Major" ............
if you can get a custom pistol, for these "Atomic" loads.

 

[WR Moore]

I shot IPSC during the days of .38 Super major caliber. There were folks who had one box of ammo for the chronograph/power meter and another (or 2) for the match. If you watched them shoot-or were on the line with them- it was obvious who was feather bedding.