Civilian First Model Schofield

[crossv]

I am just curious to get a sense of current expert opinion on whether it is likely that any true "civilian" First Model Schofield's exist.

Most references, including the most recent, 3rd Standard Catalog, indicate production at 3000 to the US Govt and 35 civilian for a total of 3035. The other main data that I am aware of is Charlie Pate's summary of the Schofield inspection process and data in his article of May 1979 in Arms Gazette and a factory letter I have from Roy dated February 15, 1978 listing the shipments of Schofield's in 1875 as follows:
April - 3 shipped to G.W. Schofield
July 12 - 3000 delivered to US Armory Springfield
Later in July - 2 delivered to Arthur Farretts
October - 29 delivered to M.W. Robinson

From the inspection data, it seems unlikely that any significant guns could have been assembled after the 3000 delivered since only 3002 barrels were submitted for inspection and two rejected. I am unclear, however, whether S&W could have had parts made at that time which were not submitted for inspection. Do we have any evidence one way or the other on that?

The three revolvers sent to GW Schofield were acknowledged in a letter from Schofield to S&W dated May 10, 1875 as shown in Parson's S&W book. Charlie Pate states in his September/October 1985 Man at Arms article that an 1875 letter from Schofield indicates that these guns were not inspected, but I haven't seen that letter published. So is it still possible that the 3 sent to Schofield were counted in the 3000 delivered in July?

Does anyone know who Arthur Farretts is and how he figures in this story?

So the strongest argument for the existence of genuine civilian First Model Schofield's would be the October delivery to M.W. Robinson. Schofield's May 10, 1875 letter mentioned above also asks S&W to indicate if they will sell to dealers and at what price. S&W replies on July 27, 1875 with a price for a single one at $17.50 (also in Parsons). So there is evidence of a desire that could have led to collecting up or making some additional parts for that delivery. Although the order for what became the Second Model was made March 15, 1875, S&W still was confused whether the order had been countermanded in November of 1875 and this wasn't cleared up until about December 1, 1875. So a delivery in October would be of First Model design it would seem. Although I don't doubt Roy's reading of the factory records, it still bothers me that there might not have been many extra barrels and it seems that S&W might not have been willing to forge a few new ones while they were waiting to get a resolution on the next large contract. The other thing is that Charlie had identified a Second Model at serial 3014 (do we know of a lower number Second Model now?), which would imply a serial number duplication in First Models or a duplication (overlap) between First and Second models. It also seems like by now if we were going to find one of these 29 (or 29 + 2 + 3), it would have happened by now.

Is anyone aware of a strong candidate for a civilian First Model Schofield?
Do you feel the odds are that they existed or not? For me, I am a bit dubious.

CB

For completeness, I have attached the original letter from Roy which indicates it would be unlikely any First Model Schofield could be lettered as a Civilian and even if so it would be based on close inspection of the revolver itself and not any factory records based on serial number. I am not aware that anything is different today.

 

[opoefc]

CB, Your questions are the same one that have puzzled me for years. Guns I have examined over that time didn't lead me to any conclusive evidence, however Charlie and I have opined that a Schofield missing complete inspectors proofs probably fall into two catagories (1) they slipped thru the process due to human error, or (2) they did not complete the inspection process because they were pulled from inspection for a non-mlitary use, such as a commercial order or for Col Schofield's personal use. Many years ago, Serial number One was briefly in my collection and ,as I recall, it had full military stamps, plus it had been converted to a Wells Fargo gun after being sold as military surplus. Serial number Six, in my collection, has the "L" stamp ( for Lyle) but no "P" stamp. Does that mean it's one of the 3 guns given to Schofield, and therefore didn't require the complete inspection process? Could be, as he probably got his guns early in the production, or did it escape the "P" stamp because the inspectors perhaps didn't have their act together that early?
Some years ago, Roy told me he had seen ( or maybe lettered) a civilian first model that had the US stamp, which he said was a phony stamp added after market. Have you ever examined a 1st model that lettered to a dealer, if so, what stampings did it have? The assumption can be made that civilian 1st model could, and probably should, have some inspector's stamps, as they probably had parts rejected by the US inspectors, as we well know S&W never threw away anything. Ed.

 

[crossv]

Thanks much, Ed. I think your reasoning about the SN 6 might fit being one of the three sent to Schofield. But it does have the US on the toe of the frame, right?

I think we all would agree that a civilian First Model would likely have some of the sub inspection marks, with the barrel being least likely in my opinion based on the inspection reports that Charlie found. Certainly some of these marks would not rule one out. Charlie stated in one of his articles that he would doubt a gun with all the correct subinspector marks (and no condemned marks I assume). I am still a little open on this point. Either way, this leaves the US mark as the most crucial difference. The mark or cartouche on the left grip would also rule out a civilian if it looks like the grip is correct. The right grip is the numbered one, I believe.

Any idea about who Arthur Farretts might be? I don't find any Farretts in the US census at all. Farrett however seems to have been in the Long Island area from the mid 1600's and I find them (although not in large numbers) in all the early census files; but no Arthur. I am thinking this person should have some relationship with Schofield because Schofield's letter of March 28, 1875 tells S&W "If not already shipped you may send but three (3) instead of six (6). I will hereafter order some others sent direct to parties for whom the others were intended." Of course, it is very possible that reading the ledger could lead to some confusion over exact spellings here.

What do you think about whether S&W would have had more barrels at the time of the inspection being completed (June 29, 1875). Charlie shows that only 3002 were submitted during the 179 day inspection and two were rejected. I would assume that if more were available they would have been inspected at the barrel level to allow for any rejection at the assembly level. Like you say, there was little downside because they would have used the marked barrels in civilian production anyway. If this logic is correct, it is a significant question in whether 3035 would have been made at all.

You ask about markings on a dealer lettered First Schofield. That is at the heart of the issue to me; I have never known of a First Model lettered to a dealer, much less looked at it. Your comment about Roy maybe lettering one as civilian is news to me. As you may know, my Dad had one without the US marking (but all the rest) and he had the Texas DPS do an acid etching test for it, which they reported as no evidence of prior marking. However, the bottom of the frame grip is pretty rough and shows localized abrasion at the toe. I'm sure you have noted as I have that some First Models, even in excellent condition often have a very lightly stamped US. So I just wonder, if this was the case, whether the acid test would have detected it. In the letter Roy sent in 1978 regarding this gun, he states: "There are no factory records that can identify the serial number of the civilian First Model Schofield." Then he goes on to list the shipments as in my first post. From that I assume that whatever shows 29 to MW Robinson in October has no serial information.

Thanks again for your knowledge and thoughts.
CB

 

[opoefc]

CB, Yes, ser. # 6 has the correct US on the butt. It was some years ago when I had asked Roy if he had ever seen or lettered a civilian 1st model ( probably about the time of one of Charlie's articles) and that was when he said he had seen a civilian with a fake US stamp. Whether he had lettered the gun and that was how he found out it was a civilan gun, or had seen a Schofield at gun show, or somewhere, and the US stamp was an obvious fake and therefore he assumed it was a civilian, I don't know. Roy has always told me that the only "shipping " record for the 1st models is the factory billing invoice sent to Springfield Arsenal for payment and that's the date he uses for lettering a US Schofield. If Roy reads this, perhaps he can recall the event.
Arthur Farrett is unknown to me, but if you know where Schofield was stationed when he wrote the 1875 letter, you might check the officer roster for that station, or unit, and see if Farrett was a fellow officer. Charlie could probably do that in the military archives ( he's a permanent fixture there!) . I think it's a very good bet that S&W had more barrels than the 3002 submitted. 3002 is cutting it pretty close for a 3000 gun order. In the mid 1950s, at a Gun Show in Los Angeles, I bought a foot locker full of scrap parts, jigs, tools, etc. from a dealer. They were all from the scrap sold off by S&W when they moved the plant out to it's present location. The were lots of inspectors gauges marked "American," "Schofield," "NMo#3", etc. some frames, cylinders, barrels, etc. unserialized. Its been a long time since then, but some of those barrels were probably Schofields. There were mayby a dozen barrels of all kinds, mostly in the white, but some were blued. I know there were several American barrels as I used them to repair Americans.
Here's a little trivia about Schofield : About a dozen years ago, I visted the museum at the military post on the Apache reservation where Schofield committed suicide. I asked the curator if I could see the Army Day Book for the day that the suicide occured. Hoping that the serial number of the Schofield he used to shoot himself was recorded in the morning report for that day. Unfortunately, she said that book was out and had been borrowed by one of the Park Rangers , so I will have to go back someday to see it. She did suggest that I visit the Post Cemetary as the grave was still there, although all the bones of the service men buried there had been moved to a Nat'l Cemetaery in Texas when the post was abandoned. The grave yard is still there, has Apache graves and has a few of the soldiers 19th century headstones still standing, however none of them were for Col Schofield. I asked an Apache women nearby what had happened to the numerous tombstones left behind when the bones were removed. She pointed to several Apache houses. The foundation stones were all tombstones, laid flat about 5 stones high, like bricks. Somewhere under one of those houses is Col. Schofield's tombstone! You would have to tear down all the buildings to find it. I think that tombstone would make a great display, with a Schofield collection, at one of our S&WCA meetings someday, don't you? Ed.

 

[crossv]

Great story, Ed. Thanks so much for sharing that. It definitely puts some new to-dos on my next trip west. I will ping Charlie about Farrett(s). I did check the soldier and sailor index, but that won't catch post civil war folks.

On the barrels, I hear the argument about 3002 just cutting it too close; that makes a lot of sense. Even the 35 or so to fit the story would be pretty conservative. Of course any later parts could not add to the understanding of first model barrel availability unless they were inspected with the inspection marks of the first model inspectors because they could have been made for the early second model production. And the inspection report suggests that would not be possible.

Thanks again, it is clear you could have forgotten more than I will ever know about these guns (but you haven't forgotten much either).

cb

 

[glowe]

Let me start this post stating that I do know very little about original Schofields, since they are mostly out of my price range. I love to history of this S&W and at least have a reproduction that I shoot often.

Anyway, I was thumbing through an old copy of Supica's Old Town Station Dispatch (#43 & 44) and came upon a 2nd Model Schofield that Jim states may be a rare civilian model. He states in his description that this example, with sn 8477, does not have "US" on butt, nor any other military inspector marks. He also states that there were about 650 civilian 2nd models made. Thought it was interesting that he was listing this Schofield for $2850 and if a civilian model, that price would be a bargain!

You can put this in the "for what it's worth" department.

 

[crossv]

Yes, civilian examples of the second model with serials above 6000 are rare but not unknown by any means. Since the gov't ordered 6000 total first and second models but eventually made around 8000, numbered in the same series, once you get to serials above 6000 the chances of a civilian become substantial. I assume there will be a few civilians below sn 6000, but I don't know for sure. I have a civilian that is 62xx.

 

[opoefc]

Bob, Some of Charlie's articles are as follows: May 1979 Arms Gazette; Vol 10, 1978 issue of the SWCA Newsletter: Man At Arms, Number 5, for year 2000; and Man At Arms. Number 3, for 1996. There are also articles in various issues of the Journal of the SWCA, by Charlie on his research findings on the Schofield. Check the Journal indexes for those. Ed.

 

[opoefc]

Yes, I have that photo copy somewhere in my files, also. His body was later removed from the Ft.Apache post cemetery, where he shot and killed himself, and shipped to his family in Illinois. According to info. Charlie Pate included in one of his articles, the bones of the soldiers buried in the Post Cemetery were removed to a Texas Nat'l Cemetery when the Post was closed. There were probably 1/2 doz. remaining tombstones of soldiers at the Post cemetery at Ft.Apache when I was last there, all of the typical Military style of the period when the post was active. There were, of course, other graves and monuments for civilians and Apache Indians, as the cemetery was used for many years after the Army left. I'm assuming that Col. Schofield was probably interred at the Post cemetery shortly after his demise, as conditions for preservation of human remains was not a priority in Apache territory in those days. Assuming that, It follows that a military tombstone for an officer of his rank would have been placed at the grave and that when the body was removed for shipment to his family, the tombstone did not go with him and it's likely that it's one of the many foundation stones underlying an Apache dwelling at Ft.Apache. Col. Schofield died from the effect of a self inflicted gun shot. Can we assume it was from his personal Schofield revolver? Was it Schofield, ser. # 6, in my collection? Number 6 was supposedly discovered in AZ many years ago, according to the man I bought it from several years ago, an old time AZ resident, and he had owned it for quite sometime. ( Someday I'll test the muzzle for DNA ! ) Ed.

 

[opoefc]

There are several published accounts of Schofield's suicide, some at the time and some later, that I have read in the past. All seemed to focus on some mental distress that apparently he was suffering from at the time, as was reported by his fellow officers at the Post, and that was blamed as the cause. Some reports said he had a brain tumor. He was only 49 years old and was apparently well thought of by most of his superiors at the time. His brother, John, was a Major General, commanding the Division of the Pacific, US Army, and probably had something to do with the return of the remains to the family plot in Illinois. According to the Springfield Armory Museum records, Schofield ended his life early morning, Dec. 17. 1882, with one of his own revolvers. The New York Herald's obituary of Schofield said : " Lt. Col. George W. Schofield, Sixth Cavalry, …committed suicide at Ft. Apache, A.T., at day break Sunday morning in his room. His servant was in his room building a fire and Lt. Col. Schofield was at the washstand combing his hair. He asked his servant to leave the room, and he had barely closed the door when a shot was fired. he had been crazed for eight or ten days over some invention of his, and it is supposed that in a moment of temporary insanity he shot him self." Ed.