Civilians versus terrorists with armor?

Aloha,

Don't forget the Austin, TX, horse cop who while holding on to 2 horses dropped a BG at over 100 yards

Austin cop's sure shot stopped crazed gunman | Fox News

And then there is the Texas CCW guy who took on a nut case with an AK with his 45.
He didn't know the BG was wearing armor and was shot and killed by the BG.
But, not before slowing the BG down enough that LE got him a few minutes later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

So, a CCW person Can engage an Armored BG and win.

All depends on the Good guy and his shooting ability and his recognizing that if center of mass
is not doing the job, it is time to go for head shots or pelvic shots.

From you tube videos, anyone wearing armor without a hard plate, getting
"tagged" by a magnum caliber handgun will know it. May Not get thru, but,
impact will get his attention. Thus resulting in change of shot placement.

So, lots of Practice at longer ranges with "enough" gun may be in order.
 
In the US, terrorist is not synonymous with suicide bomber.

Compare the number of suicide bombers and attempts in the US versus the run of the mill domestic terrorist armed with a gun or using explosives, vehicles or other weapons without an intent to commit suicide.

The most recent attempt was on NWA flight 253 was in 2009
and it was unsuccessful.

There was the University of Oklahoma bombing in 2005, where the bomber blew him self up but managed to no kill anyone else.

Then we have a bit of a dry spell before these 4 events between 1927 and 1962:

Continental Airlines flight 11 in 1962
National Airlines flight 2511 in 1960
Poe Elementary school in 1959
Bath Township school in 1927

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Lots of people have suggested that worrying about body armor is pointless as the bomber will have a dead man switch and suggest that at handgun engagement ranges, you are better off running.

I'll posit that advice is only good advice if you see an actual explosive vest.

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What you can do is practice failure to stop drills.

The basic concept is that if you've hit an assailant in the chest 2-3 times already and he's not going down, you need to suspect that he's either wearing body armor or he's on something.

In either case, the response is to transition to a head shot. It's not a precision sniper shot, so I would not worry about the angles and avenues needed to hit the cerebellum and get an instantaneous no twitch stop. Just aim for the center of the head squeeze it off as accurately as you can under the circumstances. Hopefully the hits to the torso will have slowed him down so it's not a moving target, and/or he's moving directly at you so the aspect and lead angles are not a factor.

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Most LEOs don't use their sights at all in a gun fight. The undertrained take that as proof that no one uses their sights in a gun fight and thus they view training to use them as a waste of time. Those folks probably can't make a head shot much past 7 yards on a stationary target even on a good day at the range.

Don't be those guys.

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Ideally, you'll train to use the sights slowly at first, practicing your draw, grip and presentation so that the sights are naturally aligned as the firearm rises into your line of sight. They won't be at first, but just pause, align the sights and then squeeze off the shot. As your skills improve and you develop a consistent grip and establish the eye motor loop, you'll find the rear sights are already aligned with the front sight and the major task is just to place the front sight on target, then pause and verify the sight alignment and make the shot. That's the point where you start working on improving your speed.

Once again over time, as your speed increases while maintaining good combat accuracy, that pause becomes extremely short, to the point where you're talking about maybe .1 to .2 seconds to verify sight alignment. At that point you are primarily verifying that you still need to take the shot.

Once you start working on speed, you'll also start practicing controlled pairs where you shoot the first shot as described above, then take the next shot as soon as the pistol or revolver recovers and the front sight is back on target. You will again rely on that well trained grip to ensure the rear sights are sufficiently aligned for an accurate shot.

Once you have that down, you put the two together, putting a controlled pair center of mass and then transitioning your eyes upward for a head shot. In this case, the brief pause is primarily used to determine if the head shot is still needed, and if he's sagging to the ground the head won't be needed.

With either a semi auto pistol or a revolver, I'm inclined to put 4 shots center of mass, then transition to a head shot for the fifth shot. If he's still active after that, I'm going to be focused leaving the AO while I reload a 5 shot revolver.

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Which brings us to the very important point that you also want to practice shooting and moving. You're much harder to hit if you're moving and in a gun fight you should be moving laterally towards suitable cover.

If the assailant has a knife or blunt weapon you want to get off the X before he gets there, moving laterally to force a rushing assailant to overcome momentum to try to follow you. That momentum will put him on the outside of what ends up being a spiral as you keep moving 90 degrees away from his line of advance, giving you 3-4 seconds to fil him full of holes, even if the incident starts at a range as short as 20 feet.

Even if you can't shoot at move at your local range, you can practice your foot work as well as drawing and moving with blue gun or a positively known by you to be cleared firearm that is always pointed in a safe direction.

You want to move laterally by stepping out with one foot then bringing the other foot over to meet it, so that you never cross your feet. If you cross your feet, the odds are good that under stress you'll trip your self, and that makes you much more vulnerable in an attack.
 
I recently picked up a 2 1/2 inch model 19-3. One day after spending some quality time with my 300 Blackout at a nearby 50 yard indoor range I got it in my head to try the model 19 out at 50 yards. Put up an NRA 25 yard rapid fire target and ran it all the way to the back of the range. Then I cocked that model 19, sighted it carefully, and fired 2 full cylinders at that target. Every single hit was inside the 7 ring (11 inches) and 8 out of 12 were inside the 8 ring (7.75 inches).

Point being I would not rule out head shots. Spend some time shooting at long range and take care to use proper technique and you just may be surprised at what you are capable of.
 
Don't box yourself into the recent stereotype of terrorists. We have had plenty of home grown ones show up in the last 20+ years. What any reasonably person would call a terrorist attack occurred in Colorado Springs today. He killed, as far as I have heard at this time, 1 cop and two civilians, and wounded 9 more. He was apparently held down with suppressive fire by LE, but his location was not well enough known to take him out. He eventually surrendered instead of self-selecting like most of them do, or letting the cops have a shot at him. Apparently, no one in the clinic was armed with a firearm, shame on them. It could have made a difference. Hell, a scalpel in the eye would have made a difference.

BTW: the advice above to shoot someone in the back of the head if they are actively killing or trying to is spot on.
 
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Body Armor will save your life, undoubtedly.

But you will still feel the hit. There will still be

extreme pain, and impact trauma. Not to mention the

force of the round which would normally penetrate an

unarmored person, being stopped on impact with the

armor. So, just saying, body

armor is hardly a free ride through a firefight.

That's before somebody shoots you either in the

neck, head, or kezains...

I know not what others will do, but if I am faced with the

sterling opportunity to stand up to terrorists in defense of country,

constitution, and loved ones, I don't care if those baxters are clad

head to toe in adamantine/kevlar/composite shielding, I won't let those

clowns wreak havoc in my back yard, if I can prevent it...
 
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IMO, the BEST things you can do is:

A) Increase your situational awareness. You can't be surprised if you're expecting it

B) Practice at longer ranges than usual. Having the targets father away will magnify your mistakes and allow you to correct them, plus if you can routinely make center mass/head shots at 30' - 50' then at combat distances, you'll be an ace.

C) Find a way to control your "fight vs flight" and other adrenaline caused responses. Adrenaline is good, but uncontrolled it can take away your focus, your responses and even your ability to act.

D) Realistically, you won't want to run TOWARD the shooter, you might reach him just as the cops do and YOU could be mistaken for a second suspect

E) Unless you are directly under attack, or the attacker is close enough to smell him, don't engage. As a citizen in this, your #1 priority is for you and your family to survive, a distant #2 would be to take a close attacker out
 
I recently picked up a 2 1/2 inch model 19-3. One day after spending some quality time with my 300 Blackout at a nearby 50 yard indoor range I got it in my head to try the model 19 out at 50 yards. Put up an NRA 25 yard rapid fire target and ran it all the way to the back of the range. Then I cocked that model 19, sighted it carefully, and fired 2 full cylinders at that target. Every single hit was inside the 7 ring (11 inches) and 8 out of 12 were inside the 8 ring (7.75 inches).

Point being I would not rule out head shots. Spend some time shooting at long range and take care to use proper technique and you just may be surprised at what you are capable of.
Our local outdoor range doesn't allow steel targets closer than 25 yards, in large part due to many of the locals showing up with homemade mild steel targets and/or people who don't know how to hang a steel plate properly.

The upside of that is that I can still have great fun hitting steel plates at 25 yards and 50 yards with a variety of handguns. I have one particular 8" round plate with a 3" gong in the center. It's fairly common to go 5 for 5 with a 3" J-frame on that 3" center target from a two hand, offhand position.

With my 6" Model 19 and my 6" Security Six, going 6 for 6 at 50 yards on a 6" target is common.

Unfortunately, when you start doing those kinds of things other shooters say things like "Wow...great shooting!" when it really isn't all that exceptional. It's within the ability of most shooters if they'd a) realize what's possible and b) focus on some basic handgun marksmanship principles.

Back when I started shooting, NRA Bullseye competition was widespread with regular postal matches held even in rural areas. With the 5.5" bullseye on the 25 yard B8 target and an 8" bullseye on the 50 yard B6 target, people were able to see that those levels of accuracy were not only possible, but fairly pedestrian for an experienced shooter.

Sadly, the mindset now seems to be that if you can stay on the torso sized B27 target at 10 yards, you're a good shot. Along with this is an over emphasis on speed at the expense of good combat accuracy, as many shooters think that speed and accuracy are diametrically opposed, failing to realize that with proper skills development you can shoot very rapidly, with surprising accuracy at social shooting distances.

I try to mix in a combination of speed drills at short ranges of 7-10 yards and accuracy drills at 25 yards, and occasionally 50 yards with my self defense handguns on every range trip. The accuracy portion of the session is important to ensure that you don't start sacrificing accuracy for speed. Misses don't win gunfights.
 
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You will probably never encounter a terrorist in several lifetimes, but remember that terrorist with a bomb belt or vest have a dead switch,when they go down it goes off.
Your better off running because it's a no win situation with a handgun.
Rifle and distance could only win .
What dead switch? None of the Parris attackers had dead switches! How are they going to shoot, reload and hold a switch?
 
You will probably never encounter a terrorist in several lifetimes, but remember that terrorist with a bomb belt or vest have a dead switch,when they go down it goes off.
Your better off running because it's a no win situation with a handgun.
Rifle and distance could only win .
  1. How does somebody change magazines on a Kalashnikov multiple times with a dead man switch?
  2. The Army taught me a number of useful things. #1 was that NOBODY can outrun a bullet. SOP for near ambushes is to CHARGE the ambush while delivering the utmost shock and violence. A terrorist attack in close proximity to you is the very definition of a near ambush.
I may get shot, but it won't be in the back... much less in the back of the head, on my knees, execution style.
 
Amazing!

Can likely count on one hand the number of times I have agreed with cmort666...but this is one of them. And am wholly in agreement with his last words.

Be safe.

  1. How does somebody change magazines on a Kalashnikov multiple times with a dead man switch?
  2. The Army taught me a number of useful things. #1 was that NOBODY can outrun a bullet. SOP for near ambushes is to CHARGE the ambush while delivering the utmost shock and violence. A terrorist attack in close proximity to you is the very definition of a near ambush.
I may get shot, but it won't be in the back... much less in the back of the head, on my knees, execution style.
(emphasis added)
 
You just need the right ammunition for you handguns:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3K1VgJpiNE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3K1VgJpiNE[/ame]

It may be possible to "homemade" these projectiles with a hard kernel of wolfram carbide....
 
If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you. You will be out gunned. You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun. You will not have your AR, Garand, Grenade Launcher or other neat stuff with you. You will not have Air Support nor Artillery. You will have an easy to carry handgun. There is the high likely hood that, at the least, you will tie up Police in trying to figure out who you are or, they might even kill you. If, if, by wild chance you get the opportunity to shoot a for sure bad guy, then do it. Then do your best to leave the area and consider yourself very lucky. After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.
 
If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you.
That didn't seem to be part of the plan for the Paris murderers.

You will be out gunned.
Not after I shoot Jihad Johnny in the head and take his Kalashnikov.

"You will be outgunned" sounds an awful lot like the "What if the robber has a BIGGER gun???" so beloved of anti-gunners.

I seem to recall four ships, the U.S.S. Johnston, the U.S.S. Heerman, the U.S.S. Samuel B. Roberts, and the U.S.S. Hoel that were also "outgunned". Had they followed your advice, the Leyte invasion force would have had a VERY bad day...

You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun.
Certainly if you leave them to their work, the guys with the Kalashnikovs, surrounded by dead toddlers at Santa's Village will be easy to identify...

After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.
Then I can go home and eat my gun out of pure unadulterated shame.
 
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