littlerocknroller
Member
Terrorists usually don't wear body armor, but explosive belts which guarentees the 27 virgins. They don't care about their lives and that's what makes them so dangerous! Think of Paris!
Civilians versus terrorists with armor?
- Thread starter Naphtali
- Start date
Arik
Member
I thought it was 72?!?!?!
cmort666
Member
Yes, and they're all male Star Wars fans...
JJEH
Member
Don't forget about the North Hollywood shootout. Those people are terrorists and not just run-of-the-mill criminals. And they should get hell!
Cal44
Member
Arik you missed the memo.
There have been so many terrorists created recently that the number of virgins had to be decreased.
Sort of like what has happened to public employee retirement plans.
In fact, now that I think of it, this virgin thing is a kind of retirement plan for terrorists.
Arik
Member
Makes sense!
Going from 72 to 27. Soon it will be 27 but only used once
Going from 72 to 27. Soon it will be 27 but only used once
hangnoose
Member
CIVILLIANS VS TERRORISTS.
Sorry but the odds are WAY stacked against the civillian.
It would be RE ACTING against a planned attack and handguns vs rifles, talk about a lose lose situation. I don't care how good you may be on the range when the target & yourself are not constantly moving, people in the line of fire and shots not coming back towards you, range skill would be better than no skill, but not enough to save the day. Get the Bruce Willis die hard fantasy happy endings out of your head. The best you could hope for is to keep you & yours alive. #1 IMO get behind some cover or run away if possible. If returning fire where both parties are moving fast, any hit would be lucky, If more time & a steady firing position, go for a head/pelvic/shoulder shot, but don't count on scoring it. I would not pass up on an opportunity to make a hit anywhere, even if it were only in their pinky toe, as that may be the last shot you could have. A center mass hit may distract/buy some time to make the more difficult shot, by you or someone else.
Sorry but the odds are WAY stacked against the civillian.
It would be RE ACTING against a planned attack and handguns vs rifles, talk about a lose lose situation. I don't care how good you may be on the range when the target & yourself are not constantly moving, people in the line of fire and shots not coming back towards you, range skill would be better than no skill, but not enough to save the day. Get the Bruce Willis die hard fantasy happy endings out of your head. The best you could hope for is to keep you & yours alive. #1 IMO get behind some cover or run away if possible. If returning fire where both parties are moving fast, any hit would be lucky, If more time & a steady firing position, go for a head/pelvic/shoulder shot, but don't count on scoring it. I would not pass up on an opportunity to make a hit anywhere, even if it were only in their pinky toe, as that may be the last shot you could have. A center mass hit may distract/buy some time to make the more difficult shot, by you or someone else.
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GatorFarmer
Member
Sgt. Thomas A. Baker was wounded in action during a Japanese counter attack in 1944. He had early exhausted his rifle ammunition and broke his rifle using it as a club. Refusing evacuation - feeling he would just slow down the man carrying him- he asked for and was given a 1911 pistol with eight rounds of ammunition. His postumous Medal of Honor citation states his body was later recovered from under the tree he was laying against with eight dead Japanese soldiers laying around him.
Even against dedicated opponets with rifles, a stubborn man with a pistol can put up quite a fight.
CMOHS.org - Sergeant BAKER, THOMAS A., U.S. Army
Even against dedicated opponets with rifles, a stubborn man with a pistol can put up quite a fight.
CMOHS.org - Sergeant BAKER, THOMAS A., U.S. Army
Excellent point.
silentflyer
Member
With the bad guys with an AK/AR type of arms no handgun in the world is going to do much good, and if the BG's have body armor makes the situation even worse.
That's not saying you shouldn't have the right to try and defend yourself, but the odds aren't in your favor. IF the unlikely event ever happens you have to deal with this type of threat, never be too proud to leave, your best odds are there...
That's not saying you shouldn't have the right to try and defend yourself, but the odds aren't in your favor. IF the unlikely event ever happens you have to deal with this type of threat, never be too proud to leave, your best odds are there...
MXP
Member
Maybe this one will do the job?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PItPL7EZEc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PItPL7EZEc[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PItPL7EZEc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PItPL7EZEc[/ame]
cmort666
Member
If I'm ABLE to leave, they're not doing it right.
In the Paris theater, the victims had a choice:
- Run and get shot in the back.
- Cower and get shot in the back of the head.
One thing I guarantee you is that if I survive and some reporter asks me how I did it, my answer WON'T be, "I trampled a five year old to get to the exit."
I carry in order to protect my personal safety and that of my loved ones. I am not obligated to engage any and all threats to the general public. That's the job of law enforcement. If retreating without firing a shot gives me the best chance of waking up tomorrow, that is exactly what I will do.
The idea that any one civilian with a handgun can contribute to the neutralization of a major terrorist threat is delusional.
The idea that any one civilian with a handgun can contribute to the neutralization of a major terrorist threat is delusional.
So, what would have been your plan?
Remembering that you wouldn't have been armed, the attack was perpetuated by three terrorist firing down on the crowd from the Mezzazine. There were approximately 1,500 people at the Bataclan Theatre when the attack started. 89 people were killed, 1,411 survived. So, even despite what would seem like a horrific worst case scenario of "shooting fish in a barrel", the vast majority survived.
The victims had more choices, but since you limited it to two and then said you wouldn't pick either, what exactly would you do?
Cal44
Member
All these posts about what we would do and not do are of little value, IMO.
Nobody knows how they would act in a situation like the French theater.
Plus, if you are in the middle of something like that you won't have a clue what is really going on until a lot of your options are gone.
Nobody knows how they would act in a situation like the French theater.
Plus, if you are in the middle of something like that you won't have a clue what is really going on until a lot of your options are gone.
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cmort666
Member
- I wouldn't be in France or any place like it where I have a duty to die if somebody wants to murder me. That was my starting premise.
- I wouldn't be some place similar in the United States where I couldn't carry, least of all now, AFTER a number of high profile terrorist attacks.
- If I'm some place where I can carry, I will do my best to fire and maneuver, using cover, concealment and deceit to kill as many of the killers as possible.
You might not be able to avoid death, but there's no reason to make things easier for your wouldbe murderers.
YogiBear
Absent Comrade
Aloha,
I know from other treads that some members carry N Frames in calibers like 41, 44 and 45.
Would any of these rounds be More effective against a BG wearing a vest?
I know most likely the rounds will not penetrate, but, wouldn't the impact
slow him down enough for other aimed shots to be effective?
Wouldn't the Bigger, Heavier bullet have a disorienting effect?
Just wondering?
I know from other treads that some members carry N Frames in calibers like 41, 44 and 45.
Would any of these rounds be More effective against a BG wearing a vest?
I know most likely the rounds will not penetrate, but, wouldn't the impact
slow him down enough for other aimed shots to be effective?
Wouldn't the Bigger, Heavier bullet have a disorienting effect?
Just wondering?
cmort666
Member
I have no doubt that anybody who takes a 240gr. Winchester Whitebox .44 Magnum in the vest is going to be an unhappy little critter.
Personally, I consider ANY hit with a serious caliber (.38 Special and up) to be to the good. People bleed to death from peripheral wounds, just as they do from center of mass hits. Multiple hits in the thighs from a .38, 9mm or .45 certainly aren't going to ENHANCE somebody's stamina OR powers of concentration.
And there it is. If you haven't been there, you don't know. A real fire fight isn't Call of Duty. There's no reset button if you get hit.
WELL HECK !
NOW, in addition to a straight razor, hand grenade, .45acp with 16 extra magazines (plus being nude) i gotta tote a flame thrower ! just so I can help a terrorist get laid ?
Wouldn't it be easier to give the poor guy $20.00 and drop him off at a busy truck stop ?
NOW, in addition to a straight razor, hand grenade, .45acp with 16 extra magazines (plus being nude) i gotta tote a flame thrower ! just so I can help a terrorist get laid ?
Wouldn't it be easier to give the poor guy $20.00 and drop him off at a busy truck stop ?
hangnoose
Member
I'D GIVE YOU A LIKE JIMMY
But I don't want a ding for encouraging you. To the "if you have never been fired on you wouldn't know" bit, yes there is merit to that line of thought, however anyone can freeze up at any time, regardless of prior experience.
But I don't want a ding for encouraging you. To the "if you have never been fired on you wouldn't know" bit, yes there is merit to that line of thought, however anyone can freeze up at any time, regardless of prior experience.
keithherrington
Member
And that's why I sight all my handguns in for 50 yards. If I have to I want to be able to.
Keith
GatorFarmer
Member
All abled bodied American males in a certain age bracket are technically part of the militia and required, when called upon, to participate in national/public defense. That was the common law before there was a United States and was later codified under Federal law.
Those old Bugs Bunny cartoons where he yells to call out the militia, the Martians have landed, were actually based on a real "thing". There is provision, in case of national emergency, to "call out the militia".
Under most Western religions,pagan as well as Christian sects, a death that comes about in defense of others/the public ranks as a "good" death.
According to an article in American Rifleman no less than 55 Medal of Honor citations went to men armed with 1911s, and at least three others went to men with captured German pistols. These men either prevailed, or went down hard, against trained and motivated opponents armed with rifles, grenades, and automatic weapons.
In one case, during the Battle of the Bulge, three signalmen, armed only with 1911s and no more than the cursory Army pistol training of the day managed to hold off an entire German platoon.
This means other scared, poorly trained Americans - when pressed - gave good accounts of themselves with pistols.
Americans and others without even the benefit of pistols, defeated the AK armed attacker on a Paris train mere months ago.
cmort666
Member
There is no guarantee that if you fight that you will win.
There's a 100% guarantee that if you DON'T fight that you will LOSE.
My role model is Commander Ernest P. Evans:
Commander Ernest P. Evans
NOT Ray Kelly:
Ray Kelly
Ten times out of ten, I'd rather live up to Evans's example rather than down to Kelly's.
I should have paid more attention to those Saturday morning cartoons when I was a kid.
Heck, I don't know. Practice yer head shots, I guess. What else can you do?
explorer13421
Member
If you have a handgun with you and find yourself in the middle of a terrorist incident, you have the option of using the handgun to protect yourself or others. While I do not want to engage in a face to face shootout with anyone, the possibility exists that a person with a handgun would be to the side or behind a terrorist and have a chance at shooting to stop the terrorist.
Do I think I can draw from concealment and shoot to stop a terrorist presently shooting at me or pointing his AK-47 at me? No I do not. However, at the concert venue in Paris there were over 1,000 people there. Some of them were close enough to the terrorists to have been able to hit the terrorists with a handgun, and some of the people close to the terrorists were behind or to the side of the terrorists.
Unfortunately, we have seen enough incidents to know that passively waiting to be shot does not seem to deter or stop terrorists, and that fighting back seems to reduce the number of casualties. Fighting back by throwing books or chairs is better than nothing, but I do not think it is as good as fighting back with a handgun.
Do I think I can draw from concealment and shoot to stop a terrorist presently shooting at me or pointing his AK-47 at me? No I do not. However, at the concert venue in Paris there were over 1,000 people there. Some of them were close enough to the terrorists to have been able to hit the terrorists with a handgun, and some of the people close to the terrorists were behind or to the side of the terrorists.
Unfortunately, we have seen enough incidents to know that passively waiting to be shot does not seem to deter or stop terrorists, and that fighting back seems to reduce the number of casualties. Fighting back by throwing books or chairs is better than nothing, but I do not think it is as good as fighting back with a handgun.
cmort666
Member
- Even without a gun, you fight with ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you can. Pen, belt buckle, fists, KILL them before they kill you. To borrow a supposed comment by Miles Davis, I'd rather die with my fingers clenched around one of their throats than running away.
- If there were other people on the mezzanine, they should have rushed them and tried to throw them off to their deaths.
Ozark Marine
US Veteran
Some people will never fight. They have never known true evil. In a way I feel pity for them. But then again it's Darwin's theory of ridding the gene pool of cowards.
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