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Coach: Why am I Shooting Low and Right? (Lefty)
- Thread starter Llando88
- Start date
Rastoff
US Veteran
That makes more sense. Even so, why are you doing this?
I'm just spit balling here, but it seems like it could lead to an inaccuracy issue. Your thumbs should be relaxed. By trying to feel that reference point with your thumb, you run the risk of putting pressure on the slide with your thumb. This could push the gun off line.
I've never seen anyone with such a reference point. If it's working for you, keep doing it. However, I just don't see the necessity.
Got it.
Yes, I wanted something at position X on the slide where my right thumb brushed when I held the correct grip, kind of a reminder. Copy no pressure on the thumbs.
Well alrighty, shot another 150 124 FMJ today, but with a twist.
About half the rounds I used the LARGE backstrap, and half the SMALL.
(Like an idiot, I gave away my MEDIUM backstrap to a forum friend, so I am on the lookout for a M backstrap.)
Anyway, interestingly enough, I actually liked the beefier feel of the L backstrap. It seemed like it moved my trigger finger to a more isolated (from the rest of my fingers) position. Interesting because my mitts are not real big (5'7") for a guy. I had assumed I'd go with the small backstrap size since the get go.
Another 150 flawless rounds through the FS 9, 1,020 since Nov 13. Continue to be very happy with the pistol.
Below is a comparison at 25 yards (lot of room for improvement lol) top is the L backstrap, bottom the S, on a couple B-8 Repair Center targets.
I thought it was interesting these rounds seem to be 'high and right' relative to my usual 'low and right' POI relative to POA.
About half the rounds I used the LARGE backstrap, and half the SMALL.
(Like an idiot, I gave away my MEDIUM backstrap to a forum friend, so I am on the lookout for a M backstrap.)
Anyway, interestingly enough, I actually liked the beefier feel of the L backstrap. It seemed like it moved my trigger finger to a more isolated (from the rest of my fingers) position. Interesting because my mitts are not real big (5'7") for a guy. I had assumed I'd go with the small backstrap size since the get go.
Another 150 flawless rounds through the FS 9, 1,020 since Nov 13. Continue to be very happy with the pistol.
Below is a comparison at 25 yards (lot of room for improvement lol) top is the L backstrap, bottom the S, on a couple B-8 Repair Center targets.
I thought it was interesting these rounds seem to be 'high and right' relative to my usual 'low and right' POI relative to POA.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
Your groups are really improving.
Well here is the update after yesterday's enjoyable day at the range.
A few facts and figures:
- Pistol how has 1,120 flawless rounds through it, with 0 FTF or FTE issues caused by the gun (I've caused a couple). I've noticed the feed ramp is getting polished, there is a burnishing on the slide rails and the trigger (Apex Polymer Trigger and DCAEK) is wearing in nicely. The pistol now has a satisfying mechanical "clack clack" action, and 'feels' like a mechanism that is of a whole (Being an engineer, I have a weakness for machinery.)
Still enjoying the Trijicon HD Yellow sights as well, I find the Yellow front easy to pick up. I see them glowing at me from the nightstand in dim light at night, and it is very comforting.
- I've now logged 2,200 rounds of 9mm since last June, including the rental M&P I shot extensively before purchasing mine, and several other 9mm rental guns (Glock 19, H&K USP Compact, Beretta Storm, SigSauer, etc.)
To the grip issue: I replaced the L grip with the S and shot the 100 rounds with a Pachmayr Slip on grip Saturday. I did not like it. I bought it for a few bucks off eBay, as an option against the Talon stick-on grip which had peeled off the back. The Pachmayr grip slides on well, and appears to fit ok. I just did not end up liking the "squishy" feel of the silicone rubber in my hand, seemed like the pistol moved a bit more. I may try the Pachmayr grip again but will likely sell it on. It may be an option for those who like it, I am just not sure it is for me.
I am still on the look out for a size M grip (recall I gave mine away to a forum friend, they appear to be out of stock everywhere) because I think that is the size for me.
- Ammo: Still shooting Freedom Munitions 124 gr FMJ RN new, about $67 for 250 rounds. My future SD ammo is likely Speer Gold Dot 124+p, I want to have the felt recoil of my SD ammo ($$$) be about the same as my practice ammo ($). I like the feel of the 124 bullet vs. the 115. It just feels more "solid". Hard to explain.
- POI: So, my point of impact is now moving, relative to the last few months. I noticed that my tutor target is now indicating "Improper Trigger Placement" from "Jerking the Trigger".
Meaning that, for a lefty, instead of shooting low and away, I'm not shooting high and right. Same gun, no adjustments.
I'm astonished (ok, well not really) that simple things like grip size and experience can affect POI so much.
(Rastoff - I peeled off the skateboard tape on the slide -- you are right, it was not needed, and was causing me to place my thumb there. No tape = no thumbs. )
Reference the numbers, and the photo above, I was consistently 2" high and right on the day. So, on the last group of 10, I moved the POA 2" left, and was rewarded with a group of shots that covered that lower middle center dot.
For this group also, I practiced with a very firm grip, and pressed the trigger to the break, relaxed and started to breathe out, so when it fired, it fired. At some point then, the shot occurred. I think this helped with the smaller (approx 2") group size here on this run.
While I have some to go with continuing to practice dry presses at home, I feel a lot better about aiming and the resulting impacts.
My wife has given me a present for Father's Day of a credit towards some personal 1:1 instruction training at the range. I have options of either some time with an instructor at FFA or there is a Basic Action Pistol course down at the Wyoming Antelope Club near me I might check out. Certainly at this point, I recognize the need to get some help. That way, once I get some proper training, I can practice more effectively.
A few facts and figures:
- Pistol how has 1,120 flawless rounds through it, with 0 FTF or FTE issues caused by the gun (I've caused a couple). I've noticed the feed ramp is getting polished, there is a burnishing on the slide rails and the trigger (Apex Polymer Trigger and DCAEK) is wearing in nicely. The pistol now has a satisfying mechanical "clack clack" action, and 'feels' like a mechanism that is of a whole (Being an engineer, I have a weakness for machinery.)
Still enjoying the Trijicon HD Yellow sights as well, I find the Yellow front easy to pick up. I see them glowing at me from the nightstand in dim light at night, and it is very comforting.
- I've now logged 2,200 rounds of 9mm since last June, including the rental M&P I shot extensively before purchasing mine, and several other 9mm rental guns (Glock 19, H&K USP Compact, Beretta Storm, SigSauer, etc.)
To the grip issue: I replaced the L grip with the S and shot the 100 rounds with a Pachmayr Slip on grip Saturday. I did not like it. I bought it for a few bucks off eBay, as an option against the Talon stick-on grip which had peeled off the back. The Pachmayr grip slides on well, and appears to fit ok. I just did not end up liking the "squishy" feel of the silicone rubber in my hand, seemed like the pistol moved a bit more. I may try the Pachmayr grip again but will likely sell it on. It may be an option for those who like it, I am just not sure it is for me.
I am still on the look out for a size M grip (recall I gave mine away to a forum friend, they appear to be out of stock everywhere) because I think that is the size for me.
- Ammo: Still shooting Freedom Munitions 124 gr FMJ RN new, about $67 for 250 rounds. My future SD ammo is likely Speer Gold Dot 124+p, I want to have the felt recoil of my SD ammo ($$$) be about the same as my practice ammo ($). I like the feel of the 124 bullet vs. the 115. It just feels more "solid". Hard to explain.
- POI: So, my point of impact is now moving, relative to the last few months. I noticed that my tutor target is now indicating "Improper Trigger Placement" from "Jerking the Trigger".
Meaning that, for a lefty, instead of shooting low and away, I'm not shooting high and right. Same gun, no adjustments.
I'm astonished (ok, well not really) that simple things like grip size and experience can affect POI so much.
(Rastoff - I peeled off the skateboard tape on the slide -- you are right, it was not needed, and was causing me to place my thumb there. No tape = no thumbs.
)Reference the numbers, and the photo above, I was consistently 2" high and right on the day. So, on the last group of 10, I moved the POA 2" left, and was rewarded with a group of shots that covered that lower middle center dot.
For this group also, I practiced with a very firm grip, and pressed the trigger to the break, relaxed and started to breathe out, so when it fired, it fired. At some point then, the shot occurred. I think this helped with the smaller (approx 2") group size here on this run.
While I have some to go with continuing to practice dry presses at home, I feel a lot better about aiming and the resulting impacts.
My wife has given me a present for Father's Day of a credit towards some personal 1:1 instruction training at the range. I have options of either some time with an instructor at FFA or there is a Basic Action Pistol course down at the Wyoming Antelope Club near me I might check out. Certainly at this point, I recognize the need to get some help. That way, once I get some proper training, I can practice more effectively.
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Interesting day at the range. Comments in next post. Using Freedom Munitions 124 gr RN Reman. No FTF, no FTE.
Pistol now has 1,370 rounds through it. 0 gun-induced issues.
(1) 25 Yard unsupported, 124 gr
(2) 7 Yard, Bench rested, seated:
(3) Last set of Magazines, 7 yards, 10 rounds each:
(4)(5) Just before cleaning today at home:
Pistol now has 1,370 rounds through it. 0 gun-induced issues.
(1) 25 Yard unsupported, 124 gr
(2) 7 Yard, Bench rested, seated:
(3) Last set of Magazines, 7 yards, 10 rounds each:
(4)(5) Just before cleaning today at home:
(1) Score on this target was 78-0X, which I was pretty happy with at 25 yards, unsupported. There is an inkling of a "group" lol, and of course, as I seem to be doing lately, is upper right.
Otherwise, very happy with how the pistol is doing. I put in the M backstrap (thanks to BlacktalonJHP, who mailed me one, for free) and it fits really well.
I gripped pretty hard on this set, focused on the front site, and really slowwwwwwwed down until the break.
Otherwise, very happy with how the pistol is doing. I put in the M backstrap (thanks to BlacktalonJHP, who mailed me one, for free) and it fits really well.
I gripped pretty hard on this set, focused on the front site, and really slowwwwwwwed down until the break.
(3) This picture looks good as far as POI, but I have to say every group was aimed to POA 2" low and left of the 'X'.
So I am now shooting pretty consistently up and to the right 2" at about 7 yards.
(4)(5) Pistol is wearing in nicely at this point. Very happy with how it's shooting.
So I am now shooting pretty consistently up and to the right 2" at about 7 yards.
(4)(5) Pistol is wearing in nicely at this point. Very happy with how it's shooting.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I must say, I like how candid you are. Very few are willing to post targets on the internet to be critiqued.
Yes, it does seem that you are "heeling" the gun a little. This means that you are pressing the grip with the heel of your hand. This can cause the gun to shoot high. It is most likely because you are compensating for shooting low early on. Now you're just over compensating.
This is just a thought so, take it for what it's worth.
To correct for this, concentrate not on being slow with the trigger pull, but direct. Concentrate on moving your trigger finger straight back. Work on moving only the trigger finger. Don't over grip. The grip should be just firm enough to keep the gun under control. Every bit of extra strength is just wasted energy and keeps you from being relaxed.
Have you tried controlled pairs yet? If you haven't, try it.
Yes, it does seem that you are "heeling" the gun a little. This means that you are pressing the grip with the heel of your hand. This can cause the gun to shoot high. It is most likely because you are compensating for shooting low early on. Now you're just over compensating.
This is just a thought so, take it for what it's worth.
To correct for this, concentrate not on being slow with the trigger pull, but direct. Concentrate on moving your trigger finger straight back. Work on moving only the trigger finger. Don't over grip. The grip should be just firm enough to keep the gun under control. Every bit of extra strength is just wasted energy and keeps you from being relaxed.
Have you tried controlled pairs yet? If you haven't, try it.
Ok, range session today with 100 rounds of Freedom Munitions and Blazer Brass 124.
Changes include a mounted StreamLight TLR-1 and LF Arms mag release.
Pic one is 25 yards, slow fire, 66-0X.
Bracketing the target, obviously room for improvement.
Changes include a mounted StreamLight TLR-1 and LF Arms mag release.
Pic one is 25 yards, slow fire, 66-0X.
Bracketing the target, obviously room for improvement.
Then back to seven yards, and here I adjusted POA 2" low and leftt (circled). Good POI lol but not quite to POA.
My target tutor markings say I am anticipating recoil when hitting up on target.
I've ordered a set of Tipton snap caps I'm going to mix into my next range session.
My target tutor markings say I am anticipating recoil when hitting up on target.
I've ordered a set of Tipton snap caps I'm going to mix into my next range session.
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ginzo
Member
Great work! I am like you and try and improve with every trip.
The snap cap mix will prove anticipation issues if any. My biggest problem with my autos' is I squeeze the grip, and I try to look at the target as I'm firing to see where I hit. If that makes any sense? I work on it constantly. If I stay focused on the front sight until the round is fired, then look, I do much better.
With my revos', I just use spent shells, sometimes 1 dead and 4 live, turn my head and lock it up, or 4 dead and 1 live and lock it up. Helps anticipation tremendously.
With the 4 and 1, if the 1st one goes off, I start over. If I get the 4 dead in a row, I start over. So I never know when it's live. With a snubbie, anticipation on DA is critical.
The snap cap mix will prove anticipation issues if any. My biggest problem with my autos' is I squeeze the grip, and I try to look at the target as I'm firing to see where I hit. If that makes any sense? I work on it constantly. If I stay focused on the front sight until the round is fired, then look, I do much better.
With my revos', I just use spent shells, sometimes 1 dead and 4 live, turn my head and lock it up, or 4 dead and 1 live and lock it up. Helps anticipation tremendously.
With the 4 and 1, if the 1st one goes off, I start over. If I get the 4 dead in a row, I start over. So I never know when it's live. With a snubbie, anticipation on DA is critical.
Agreed. Unless the barrel or the sights are bent, or the barrel in a semiautomatic is not properly aligned when in battery, the gun will shoot generally where you point it. Any deviation is almost always shooter error, occasionally an ammunition issue, and almost never a sight issue, if the sights are properly aligned with the barrel.
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gwpercle
Member
Stop all the analyzing and agonizing...do this:
1) Develop a stance that feels good, comfortable and stable for you.
2) grip the gun in a manner that feels good, comfortable and stable for you.
3) Press the trigger in a manner that fells right for you.
4) Now , every thing feels good , shoot some groups and then adjust the sights so that the bullets group dead center.
5) the secret now is repeatability. Doing it the same way will get you the same results...groups to point of aim.
This only works if you own the gun...but after a little practice you will be a happy camper.
Gary
1) Develop a stance that feels good, comfortable and stable for you.
2) grip the gun in a manner that feels good, comfortable and stable for you.
3) Press the trigger in a manner that fells right for you.
4) Now , every thing feels good , shoot some groups and then adjust the sights so that the bullets group dead center.
5) the secret now is repeatability. Doing it the same way will get you the same results...groups to point of aim.
This only works if you own the gun...but after a little practice you will be a happy camper.
Gary
I guess that works if one doesn't want to learn how to use the tool properly, is going to be the only shooter and is only concerned with Instant Gratification.... But then, anyone else (with proper shooting skills) who shoots this weapon later on, would have all their shots doing the opposite of the person who had the alterations done.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Gary,
There is a place for "feels good," and I believe in being comfortable. If you're not comfortable, shooting will be difficult. However, being comfortable won't help you at all if your mechanics are off. If that "feels good" grip is allowing the gun to move around, you'll never be consistent.
I've watched guys for years say what you've said. They all claim that the sights need to be adjusted to the shooter. I've also watched those same guys adjust their sights every time they go to the range. Why do you suppose that is?
Absolutely! Repeatability is the key. Repeatability won't ever be reached if the shooter doesn't have good fundamentals.
Look, it doesn't matter what a person does or how they do it if they are hitting the intended target. However, if they are not hitting the intended target, something has to change, right?
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