Cocked or not?

[stantheman86]

For civilian CC holders a DAO revolver is IMO the best choice. By the time you have to reload the 6 rounds you just fired, I hope you are running by then.

Your job is to fire your weapon ONLY in the most dire of circumstances and then get to safety. Shoot and scoot. I can't find any data online of a single time when a civilian CCW holder got into a running gun battle with armed assailants and fired 3 mags through their Glock before it was resolved.

If you have to shoot an attacker it will probably be at very close range. When, as a civilian, do you envision having to take a 50 yard + shot with your handgun? When do you envision ever having to cock a hammer?

I won't get too long winded here but I work at my county courthouse and talk to lawyers, Deputy Sheriffs and judges almost every day and from what they have told me, after the shooting, your CC weapon will be taken into evidence and examined by the "crime lab", i.e. a police armorer. It depends on the circumstances and if God forbid any bystanders got hit by stray bullets. If it's found your gun has a "hair trigger", so they say,you could be in serious trouble, even if you never used single action to shoot. If there is no single action, there is no "hair trigger". Jury members and judges hear "cocked hammer" and they start thinking of some Wyatt Earp wannabe playing quick draw in the Quick-E-Mart parking lot with 2 crackheads.

 

[WR Moore]

A couple of comments. First, it's simply not possible from forensic examination of the weapon to positively determine if the revolver fired single or double action. This allows the opposing attorney to allege that the weapon was in fact cocked and fired accidentally. [Recall that they're free to present their "theory of the incident".] Please note that it also prevents you from introducing physical evidence that your shot was intentional.

If opposing counsel is the prosecutor, they've now got a shot (pardon the pun) at a possible manslaughter conviction. If plaintiffs attorney, triple damages as a result of negligent injury/death.

While keeping the single action capability of your revolver might seem attractive for specialized circumstances, I'm not sure it's realistic. Let's be honest here. If you think you might need the edge (especially with a snubby), could you really justify taking the shot in the real world? If you're on the fence, get another trigger or hammer fitted and have a gunsmith remove the single action sear from it for defensive use. You'll still have the original available. Save the receipts so you can prove the removal was an intentional act on your part.

Given a 1911 it's a non-issue so long as your trigger pull weight is within factory (or commonly accepted) guidelines for a service weapon. I'd strongly suggest this would be a minimum 4 lbs.

 

[J.P.60]

Such advice as to not cock a revolver or carry a semi in Condition 1 (cocked and locked) is, quite simply, hogwash. It cannot be ascertained and, even if admitted, is simply indicative of how serious you perceived the threat. In one case, I remember, specifically, cocking the gun was perceived as an equivalent to a warning - which the jury felt was important (even if not required in law).

Too many self-appointed-instructors want to impress their audience with their vast knowledge, which often times spills over in legal ramifications. Too many times, they blow smoke out of their butts.

By the way, I was with the Office of the Public Defender of Maryland for 5 years and was Legal Coordinator and Supervisor with the PA Dept. of Corrections, at SCI Greene. While not an attorney (legal assistant), I have been in the business for +35 years. Believe me, if cocked or cocked and locked does not adversely effect a Jury in a State as liberal as Maryland and a city like Baltimore, it's pretty much a non-issue.

 

[stantheman86]

Cocking a hammer as a "warning" is Hollywood bull"squeeze". If a bad guy isn't scared by the sight of a gun pointed at him, the sound of a cocked hammer won't do much good.

Realistically, think of the odds..........the odds of a civilian having to actually shoot an intruder or attacker are extremely low. It can happen, not that you shouldn't be prepared for it, but the odds are low.

There are pros and cons of all sides. If you shoot an attacker with a Glock, the prosecutor will say you had a "hi cap assault pistol". You have a 1911 and it's a "hand cannon" No matter what you use there's a way to poke holes in it. I feel for my own use that a DAO .38 Special revolver loaded with +P FMJ will be enough for absolute last-ditch self defense, which is what a CC gun is for.

From what I have been told by the people I work with, the only time you will really be raked over the coals is if there is some question as to the justification of the shooting or if an innocent bystander gets hit. It is easier to "lose" a case in civil court than criminal court. Civil court is probably where the whole "cocked hammer" thing will come into play, when the guy you shot has a family that comes out of the woodwork and wants to sue you for "shooting their troubled and misguided son" who tried to rob you for crack money.

 

[P&R Fan]

Make no mistake, this issue HAS come up in court, criminal and civil, many times. As some have mentioned, Massad Ayoob has written about it extensively over the years and maybe he'll add his thoughts here.
One issue nobody has brought up I think needs consideration. If you are involved in an armed encounter, bad things are going to happen to your nervous system. Your heart will beat much faster, blood flow will be directed away from your extremities, your fine motor skills will be less fine. Plus you will be totally focused (hopefully) on the threat. If you cock your revolver and you have your finger on the trigger (yes, I know Rule #3, but some folks don't follow that rule) you will not have the same sensitivity you have at the range. An unintended discharge is much more likely with a cocked revolver. That is never a good thing.
But lets say you got lucky and the bad guy backed down. You still have the same physical condition described above, oh and lets not forget, most people are scared to boot. You are now holding a cocked revolver. What do you think are the chances you may forget to decock? I think they're pretty good, and in the condition described it may not be as easy as on the range.
I feel cocking a revolver is a very bad idea. True, a 1911 type pistol has to be cocked to be used, but the thumb safety is much easier to apply, and is usually much more ingrained in your training.
Most trainers would tell you, use the DA feature.
Jim

 

[stantheman86]

Hollywood is the biggest enemy to many people.......in a lot of cases it's the only "training" they get, or they try to emulate what they see on TV in any kind of training they do.

Like the all too common home-defense "advice" to rack your shotgun to "send the bad guys running", which in reality will only announce your presence and invite the PCP addled intruders to play............the mistaken notion that the thunderous click of cocking your .357 will establish your authority and take control of the situation..........is pure nonsense.

 

[tom turner]

I've shot tons of double action revolver matches, and shot hundreds of times more, per event, at the range practicing. I assure you that if I'm ever forced to use deadly force that I'll be shooting double action.

That's my story . . . and I'm stickin' to it. Prove it differently in court!

BTW,

1. I've read that many victims of middle of the night robberies die when they surprise the BG by ordering the BG to "freeze" (or whatever). To a "methed" out doper, desperately trying to steal something without getting caught, they may crank a round towards the sound of your command and hit you or someone in their family. NOT GOOD!!!

It is said that you should stay in your "safe room," arm yourself and call "Dial-A-Prayer." That's hard to do when you've got young loved ones in other rooms. If you must leave your safe room to move through your house towards a potential threat, you are the aggressor against one who is more alert and prepared as you. Ordering them to "Halt" might be the last word you ever utter.

2. Inside of 19 feet, an aggressor with a knife can suddenly move on a man with a handgun and kill the one with a gun . . . even if the BG bleeds out later. NOT GOOD.

Folks, if you are confronted by a threat inside your home, you'd better be smart . . . and make sure you live to see another day . . . even if that day is in civil court. Someone invading your locked home is NOT up to any good.

No one wins in a shooting, even if it is ruled justified later, and we are responsible for every bullet we launch. Practice, prepare and, if you aren't willing to keep your skills up, are still not sure what to do . . . sell your guns and leave yourself and your family to the mercy of the typical scared and strung-out BG.

I'm not selling my guns, and I'm not prepared to allow a BG to invade my home and menace or harm anyone in my family.

 

[J.P.60]

1. I've read that many victims of middle of the night robberies die when they surprise the BG by ordering the BG to "freeze" (or whatever). To a "methed" out doper, desperately trying to steal something without getting caught, they may crank a round towards the sound of your command and hit you or someone in their family. NOT GOOD!!!

It is said that you should stay in your "safe room," arm yourself and call "Dial-A-Prayer." That's hard to do when you've got young loved ones in other rooms. If you must leave your safe room to move through your house towards a potential threat, you are the aggressor against one who is more alert and prepared as you. Ordering them to "Halt" might be the last word you ever utter.

This is most excellent advice. No warning. An intruder gives up his right to any kind of consideration by entering. For the reasons stated above, I also shun lights and lasers. I keep little "night lights" burning in the front of the house and keep the bedroom end in the dark. I keep the bedroom door "pushed to" but do not close it - just to keep from signalling my position. Finally, as noted above, I do not stop to ascertain anything more than the target. Hesitation can get me cut really bad - or shot - and I will not give an intruder that option.

 

[RightWinger]

A question for the posters of this topic...

I have heard many good arguments and discussions on deadly force, and a lot of speculation as to what many of you would do if certain situations presented themselves. While reading some of these I often wonder if the person posting has ever had to use deadly force to protect himself or another. The reason I ask is because once you are involved in a deadly force situation it tends to change your perspective on many things in life, and not just tactics. Years ago I use to always think that I would react to a deadly force encounter like they do in the movies and then aftewards I would be calm and collected.....not true at all and I was very mistaken about myself. I pray that I will never have to use deadly force again but I am blessed that I was able to walk away and to be able to learn that much about myself that otherwise I would of never known.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I agree with the idea that, if you cocked the hammer in a tense situation, you may forget to un cock it or it may go off accidentally when you try and do so. You're under a lot of pressure and perhaps not thinking clearly. All my training now, with revolvers, is DA. Remember the slogan, you fight as you're trained. In a sudden, tense situation, I don't want to find myself automatically cocking the hammer. I'm going to shoot or not, but either way it isn't necessary for my finger to be pressing on a hair trigger.

 

[GKC]

Good points made about the risk of holding a cocked revolver after the situation is resolved.

A question for those who advocate no warning...in the scenario I posed, the intruder is kneeling with his back to me. Would you shoot him in the back? Or, would you command him to stop, lay down, etc? Unless the bad guy was engaged in harming a member of my family, or moving toward a family member, I feel certain that I couldn't shoot anyone in the back without warning. (Not criticizing, asking for opinions.) If he was, however, I wouldn't hesitate...and no warning.

 

[RightWinger]

If someone has managed to break into my home at night while me or my loved ones are home I automaticly percieve that as a threat on my life.....hense the "castle doctrine".

 

[Cpo1944]

Good points made about the risk of holding a cocked revolver after the situation is resolved.

A question for those who advocate no warning...in the scenario I posed, the intruder is kneeling with his back to me. Would you shoot him in the back? Or, would you command him to stop, lay down, etc? Unless the bad guy was engaged in harming a member of my family, or moving toward a family member, I feel certain that I couldn't shoot anyone in the back without warning. (Not criticizing, asking for opinions.) If he was, however, I wouldn't hesitate...and no warning.

These situations are all hypothetical and extremely unlikely to happen . None of will react the same , however my greatest fear is :
"friendly fire"
There fore I have my bright white light to give me a positive ID of the intruder. I really believe it`s better to ere on the side of caution, If I cannot see his face or get an immediate ID, I will hold my fire and give warning first. I may have sacrificed some tactile advantage but better that, than a dreadful mistake I don`t believe I could ever live with.
I am only referring to a home invasion here. Away from home will totally depend on the circumstances.

 

[38-44HD45]

How is anyone , except you, going to know if you fired in DA or SA mode.

Two ways:
1. The BG survives.
2. You fail to eliminate all the witnesses.

It only matters if there is an allegation of firing unintentionally or if the BG ceases hostilities before one has to shoot, and is held at gunpoint. Then, uncocking under massive adrenalin dump is a fumbly operation, and an unintentional discharge is more likely.

 

[stantheman86]

This is more and more becoming my main CCW piece. I clipped two coils off of a standard weight S&W rebound spring, and replaced the Ruger stock weight trigger latch/return spring with this much heavier S&W spring. The trigger pull is heavy but reasonably smooth, and I can still hit what I aim at. There is NO way this DAO trigger is getting pulled accidently, and NO way I could ever be accused of having a hair trigger. It's also a .38 Special only, that I keep loaded with Golden Saber +P's, and I don't feel like I'm giving up any realistic defensive capability by not carrying a DA/SA .357. I don't often carry autoloaders anyway, never really did except for "niche" uses, so I wanted to make a perfect all around carry revolver.

The NYPD used DAO .38 Special revolvers to reduce liability, and now it's doing the same job for me.

 

[Stan]

A question for those who advocate no warning...in the scenario I posed, the intruder is kneeling with his back to me. Would you shoot him in the back?

Absolutely not. Back out, batten down the hatches, call the police. Do it quickly and quietly. Only if he becomes an immediate and imminent threat do you shoot him. Don't give him an opportunity to become a threat, if possible.

 

[stantheman86]

We don't have castle doctrine in PA, I hope that changes at some point. I have to wait to be attacked in my own home before I can shoot, I guess.....I won't get into CC laws because I would have to write a book to cover all of those.....it's a LOT more cut and dried as far as Home Defense. If someone's in your home, you don't know them and you didn't invite them there, it's pretty clear they're a threat.

In a castle doctrine state, you can give that clown a back full of 00 Buck and be legally fine......it wouldn't even matter if he was running for the door or climbing out the window, if he's in your home, fire away! Without castle doctrine there's a LOT more involved.....if a guy is carrying your TV set out the door and you pop him with a couple .357's, you could be in trouble if it's found he wasn't a "threat".....there have been numerous cases where intruders have been shot by homeowners, survived and then won in civil court. Or the homeowners were charged with manslaughter, like the case where a woman shot her stalker ex-boyfriend who broke into her house, the creep survived and was charged with attempted homicide because he "was just there to talk"

I think TX has even more generous laws applying to trespassers on your property. I'll bet there's a lot less trespassing going on in TX......

 

[tom turner]

Good points made about the risk of holding a cocked revolver after the situation is resolved.

A question for those who advocate no warning...in the scenario I posed, the intruder is kneeling with his back to me. Would you shoot him in the back? Or, would you command him to stop, lay down, etc? . . .

And a question in return, dear sir . . .

Where's his partner? In yet another room? While the guy you have the drop on is loudly pleading with you in the dark, what do you think his partner is doing as he creeps quietly towards you from the other room? Will HE give you the same chance? Maybe there are THREE GUYS!!!

The BGs already have the element of surprise anyway. They were probably already in your house, and in a high state of awareness and alert, long before you awoke and quit snoring.

They've been listening to the life sounds of your slumbering house and now that symphony has stopped and they hear the squeek of your bed and the soft footsteps as you get your act together. You'll probably be dead shortly after trying to leave your bedroom if they choose to stay and not flee first.

IF you get the jump on one of them, in the dark of course, who is to say that you thought he had his back to you. You just saw a kneeling form . . . probably a form who was kneeling and possibly taking aim at you. In immediate and mortal fear of your life you took a shot to protect your loved ones . . .

At the blast you are startled to hear another person crashing towards a door or window in another room . . . getting the heck out of Dodge probably . . . but be ready to fire in case he bursts into the room you are in to help his partner.

When the lights come on later, it is discovered that the BG was kneeling with his back to you, but you couldn't have known that for sure without giving up your element of surprise and your position.

Hire a good lawyer and let him do all the talking for you. The cops will probably thank you on the side for putting an habitual offender away for good. In any event, you and your family gets to live to see another day.

THEN AGAIN . . . this is a crazy thread. None of us know what we'll do until we face a bad situation. Sheep . . . or momma Grizzly? Only the situation will show you what you are.

 

[Pioneer461]

How is anyone , except you, going to know if you fired in DA or SA mode.

I personally don't see what difference it would make.

We will know when you slip and fall and your cocked revolver discharges, hurting or damaging something, or someone you did not intend to shoot, and you tell us, "oops."

It's a safety thing, and safety makes a difference whether or not anyone else knows.

 

[GKC]

There are admittedly lots of "what ifs" and variables...and as I sit here safe and secure, with no bad guys in my home (other than the biscuit stealing mutt at my feet) it is easy to say what I might do or not do. At this moment, I really don't think I could shoot someone in the back, without any other provocation, and with no warning...but that is now. In the moment, and with other variables then that I don't know now, I can't say for sure what I would do.