Cocked or not?

[stantheman86]

It's pointless to do these "what if" scenarios for self defense. A good point was made above, both in HD and concealed carry, is that you will be forced to play defense, because the bad guys already know what they're about to do and they're alert and aware, no doubt with the help of some kind of narcotic.

You won't know until the adrenaline is surging and your mind is racing, the thought that you will possibly have to kill a human being before he kills you......

Anyone who's been in a gunfight knows these feelings, when things seem to move in slow motion, fine motor skills break down, the emotions of raw fear mixed with intense anger, the strong urge to kill.....it's animal instinct. The "fight or flight" response.

I'm not saying I think everyone should run out and get a DAO revolver, I'm just saying it's a great choice for HD and CC if you happen to have one or are buying another revolver anyway........ or even looking to de-spur and file the SA notch off the hammer of a reliable shooter grade revolver to use as a CC gun. Onceyou start training with it, you won't miss the Single Action function at all. Save the SA for casual plinking.

The odds of you having to take a shot in single action at 50-100 yards in a self-defense scenario are beyond remote......even if you are dead-set in being prepared for this possibility, you can train yourself to learn the point where the hammer "stages" on your DAO revolver. It's not recommended to "stage" a S&W or Colt, but I do it all the time with my Ruger DAO, there's a convenient spot in the trigger pull where the hammer spring stages,right before the break, and I can feel it. I can make shots almost like a single action shot just by learning the feel of my trigger in DA.....for the miniscule possibility I might ever have to shoot in self defense beyond my "comfort zone" of 25 yards or so.

 

[scooter123]

This certainly has been an interesting discussion. There have also been a few scenerio's proposed that basically are Movie Fantasies.

I think that it's pretty safe to say that engaging an agressor at long range is pretty damned unlikely for a civilian unless you're Bill Gates or Donald Trump. The longest sight line in my house is about 25 feet, I expect that any encounter with a Home Invader will be at 15 feet or less. It's one reason why I've put up my shotgun and now rely on a handgun, there just isn't enough room to swing a long gun and they are not a good option in close quarters.

There have also been a couple of comments about Castle Doctrine permitting you to shoot a burglar in the back. Maybe you can do that in Texas but I suspect that in any other state you'll be facing charges. Fact is that Castle Doctrine only removes your Duty to Retreat, you will still have to be able to demonstrate that the shooting was actually Justified. Meaning, there has to be some level of Emminant Threat. Shooting someone in flight pretty much removes any possibility of Emminant Threat unless you can demonstrate they were shooting while fleeing.

So, lets suppose you've caught a burglar in the act, what should you do.

IMO the first thing you should do is put something between yourself and that burglar so he cannot charge you directly. Quite simply, you know the layout of your home and the furniture, use that to gain a Tactical Advantage.

Second, you'll need to adapt your actions by taking into account your choice of weapon and it's trigger. If it's a 1911 type, the safety should be off and your trigger finger should be off the trigger alongside the frame. If your using a striker fired pistol, the same holds true as it would with any long gun. IMO this is one area where a DA trigger has a slight advantage, with a long and heavy trigger I do not see any problem with having your finger on the trigger. Quite simply, a double action trigger allows you to only have to use one single motion to fire in response to a sudden threat.

Third, I've found that compact florescent light bulbs last much much longer if you don't ever turn them off. In addition they don't consume a lot of electricity. I have a couple of lamps in my living room that have only been turned off to change the bulbs, last time was 3 years ago. Those lamps not only light the living room but also the kitchen and the hall leading to the bedrooms. Point is, leave a couple of lights on, it doesn't cost much and may discourage a middle of the night break in. In addition they either give you needed light or alert you to someone turning them off, in which case you'll really have the tactical advantage because you won't trip over that ottoman.

As for the shoot/no shoot decision, that is situational and you'll have to make that decision on the spot. Just remember that Castle Doctrine or not, there will be costs involved in firing your gun. At the least your gun will be taken as evidence and if you get it back it will take years. In addition it's almost a sure bet that you'll be paying for a Lawyer to represent your interests and at 500 bucks an hour that adds up fast. Quite simply, if I ever confronted a burglar I'd be quite pleased if he went screaming into the night. Afterwards I'd spend a bit of money on reinforcing my entry points because it would be far less expensive than shooting him.

 

[4011]

Our firearms trainer would get irrate if he caught us cocking our DA revolvers. I would not cock one for any reason except shooting paper. Thats why the DA is so safe for home protection. Just me talking.

 

[ContinentalOp]

It's pointless to do these "what if" scenarios for self defense.

I wouldn't say it's "pointless," per se, but you can easily get to a point of diminishing returns by focusing on minute details that may not have any significant impact on the overall situation. It's good to come up with likely scenarios and work out a basic response plan, but I think you end up doing yourself more harm than good when you start adding more and more details to your scenario, then formulating specific responses for each detail. In a high-stress situation this method of preparation could easily lead to vapor-lock-of-the-brain if you encounter something that didn't match your training scenarios exactly, possibly resulting in a less-than-acceptable resolution.

IMO, keeping things as simple as possible, while retaining some flexibility for unforeseen situations, is always a good idea when working out a self-defense plan.

 

[ContinentalOp]

The longest sight line in my house is about 25 feet, I expect that any encounter with a Home Invader will be at 15 feet or less.

I think it was Louis Awerbuck who said that in terms of distance most gunfights will happen at the width of a car, the length of a car, and the length of a room. I think it helps put things in perspective regarding self-defense training. This is why nearly all of my self-defense practice is done inside 15 feet.

 

[stantheman86]

Think "self defense for civilians" not police or military.......your brain and your gut are your first most powerful weapons. We have an uncanny ability to sense when we are in real danger, or when something is just not right.

When interviewed later, the vast majority of civilians who shot intruders or attackers recall the events typical of an "adrenaline haze" and tunnel vision, so it's not like you're gonna have time to formulate a game plan. It will be a series of split second reactions to what's going on.

I have to get myself out of the "military tactical" mindset and back to civilian self defense......as in, the key being "defense" not "offense". Shooting at people who are 50 yards away with a revolver in single action is not normal for self defense.

 

[old curmudgeon]

A couple of comments.

If you live alone or with your wife only and you sleep in the same room, you should never leave your bedroom. Get out your weapon and station yourself so you can aim it at the bedroom door, with something between you and the door if possible.

Have the wife call 911 on your cell and wait it out.

If you have a house full of family, you have a very different situation. You are duty bound to protect them which means that you may have to leave your room to see that they are safe.


But leaving your room is a very high risk move. More than high risk, it borders on suicide.

For instance, coming out of our bedroom there is a guest bath immediately to the left of our door. So close that I would be within easy arm's reach of anyone hiding in that bathroom.

Straight across the hall from the bedroom door is my den. It would be easy for a BG to hide in the den and wait for me to turn the corner to go down the hall to the living room and then jump me from behind.

Actually it would be very likely if there were two BG's.

Going down the hall I would have to pass the utility room.

Entering the living room area, I would pass through a door that is not in a square wall. In other words, as I passed the door, on my right would be an area that would be BEHIND my right side...so another place where a BG could hit me from behind.

I go through all of this to make the point that if each of you would make this mental trip out of your room in the dark of the night with an unknown or maybe two or more unknowns, you would get a picture of how dangerous this really is.

Wait in your room for him/them to make their move unless you hear someone screaming or have reason to believe that another person is in danger.

Thankfully ours are all grown and gone and I don't have to be a hero.

If the BG decides to come to your bedroom, everything is cut and dried. There is no question that you are in danger for your life and no way any DA can accuse you of being a trigger happy nut case.

A BG coming through your bedroom door is another story. First, he is coming toward you so there is no question about him attempting to escape. Second, he has made it plain that you are going to come to harm. Don't say a word or make a sound. Pull the trigger.

One more comment.

Our burglar alarm's master panel is next to the back door, a common mistake. If the alarm goes off, I have to go down the hall to the utility room to see which door or window is sending the signal and to turn it off.

Within the next few months, I plan to install an updated system and the master panel will be in the master bedroom so that I can tell which door or window is sending the signal.

We will use a remote to set the alarm as we exit.

I know, I can wait for the phone to ring and the monitor to tell me which door or window and I will in the future.

But I admit that in the past, I have got up and without thinking walked down the hall and turned it off. Of course, I was armed, but doing so was stupid.

But as the guy says, we learn by our stupid mistakes.....if we live through them.

 

[luangtom]

I think it was Louis Awerbuck who said that in terms of distance most gunfights will happen at the width of a car, the length of a car, and the length of a room. I think it helps put things in perspective regarding self-defense training. This is why nearly all of my self-defense practice is done inside 15 feet.

I fully concur with the comments on training within reasonable distances. I see far too many folks firing at targets 25-yd down-range and shake my head and wonder where these folks are gonna be in a self-defense situation at that distance....they must live in a larger home than I ever have.

 

[old curmudgeon]

This thread started on the subject of legal jeopardy relative to a cocked weapon.

Shooting at anyone 25 ft. or more away, other than inside your house or place of business will expose you to a great deal more legal jeopardy.

The prosecutor and/or plaintiff's attorney likely will contend that the BG posed little if any threat at that distance and that you could have evaded him by retreat or some other means.

The question might well be raised "How did you know he was a bad guy?" "He was just another ordinary guy like you who was nervous about your intentions."

Difficult questions.

 

[MotorCityGun]

The prosecutor and/or plaintiff's attorney likely will contend that ... you could have evaded him by retreat or some other means.

Not sure where you live but in MI (and other states) we are now covered by the Castle Doctrine. Theorectically speaking, isn't this supposed to address and apply to "the obligation to retreat", et. al?

 

[old curmudgeon]

Not sure where you live but in MI (and other states) we are now covered by the Castle Doctrine. Theorectically speaking, isn't this supposed to address and apply to "the obligation to retreat", et. al?

My post said "other than your home or place of business."

A 25 yard shot is not going to take place in your home unless you are Bill Gates.

Ordinarily you would get a lot of slack in your home. The touchy stuff is when you are threatened with violence in a shopping center parking lot, convenience store, etc., and are a visitor or customer, not the owner or operator.

Also if the shooting takes place outside the confines of the home. Different rules apply in the yard, especially if you were in the house (safe according to a prosecutor) and and give up your safety in order to go out of the house to confront a BG.

Very thin ice unless you have thought it out before hand and do everything exactly right.

 

[scooter123]

Not sure where you live but in MI (and other states) we are now covered by the Castle Doctrine. Theorectically speaking, isn't this supposed to address and apply to "the obligation to retreat", et. al?

As I understand it Castle Doctrine REMOVES any obligation to retreat. However, it does NOT provide justification for shooting an intruder. Quite simply, there must be some element of threat to your life or well being before you can use Deadly Force. Basically, if you are facing someone who is armed, or larger and fitter than you are, you can shoot them without legal consequences. However, if that intruder attempts to flee as soon as he see's you are armed, you CANNOT shoot them in the back as they run out the door. Now, there is some good news in this, that is that most Police Departments and Prosecutors won't press for charges unless it's quite obvious that there wasn't any threat. Basically, they will give a homeowner the "benefit of doubt" and won't hold you to the same standard for Justification as they would a Police Officer. However, no matter what they tell you on the scene, don't say anything beyond "I wish to consult with my attourney before giving any statement". Then get yourself some legal representation post haste and don't say a thing until you have representation at your side, even if they place you under arrest for "not cooperating".

 

[stantheman86]

Excellent point, you are opening yourself up to serious liability if you shoot at someone at more than very close range.

That point will be made, as a civilian, as to how you could identify a threat 25 yards away. Even if the guy WAS close, and you are retreating, you shouldn't be shooting if you can get away.

 

[newellj]

Wow, that was a roller coaster of a thread, but I have to be honest, even thought some points bordered on insanity, I learned a lot and it gave me somethings to concider.
Thanks for the insight.

 

[stantheman86]

My final point is that it just takes some realistic thinking in terms of concealed carry and home defense. If you'r gonna draw in a last-ditch need for self-defense, and you're worried about cocking a hammer there is something wrong.

 

[Cpo1944]

My final point is that it just takes some realistic thinking in terms of concealed carry and home defense. If you'r gonna draw in a last-ditch need for self-defense, and you're worried about cocking a hammer there is something wrong.

My contention all along has been - Just because there is an intruder in your house - doesn`t mean he needs killing!
It`s possible he is a neighbor kid in there on a dare or a prank,or a relative or whatever- I could go on and on. Not every situation is a last ditch need for self defense.

I believe we gun owners tend to be too imaginative and enthusiastic with our HD preparations.

I for one will be careful not to cock and to know positively what or who my target first!

You can`t take it back!!!

 

[sipowicz]

The only possible reason to cock your gun is to ask the guy if you fired 6 shots or only 5.

 

[38-44HD45]

Do ya feel lucky, punk? Well, do ya?