colt new service .455 eley

[Jack Flash]

... I do own a MK III, V, VI, Fosbery and the .38/200 MK IV ...

You own one of these (See Below) ???

That is fantastic! They are pretty rare, and highly prized, at least here in the US. My much more modest dream is to find a pristine Mk VI some day.

By the way, for some of the earlier Webley Marks (Mk I & maybe Mk II) -- aren't they black powder only?

Sorry for the thread drift Mr. Kamloops, but you had a hand in starting it!

 

[kamloops67]

You own one of these (See Below) ???

That is fantastic! They are pretty rare, and highly prized, at least here in the US. My much more modest dream is to find a pristine Mk VI some day.

By the way, for some of the earlier Webley Marks (Mk I & maybe Mk II) -- aren't they black powder only?

Sorry for the thread drift Mr. Kamloops, but you had a hand in starting it!

heck yes drift away! lets talk early european revolvers .unfortunately here in canada prescribed antique revolvers carry a hefty premium because people are allowed to carry them anywhere a long gun can be carried. a webley mk 1 is going to cost about $1300 because it was manufactured before 1898 where a mk IV manufactured after the "cut off" might be $450
we see a lot more of the later 38s&w enfield tankers here but the earlier stuff is still around.i just need another job to support this habit.
im not sure how i feel about those converted revolvers . it seems wrong to change their originality, but they arguably become more usable. i dont think id do it.
but id cut the barrel on my m-66 given half a chance, so whats the difference (besides 75 years give er take)
ive talked to the owner of the s&w second model 455 again today .its mine for a very fair price its in about the same condition as the colt above. not a beauty queen but a rough and tumble sweetheart whose sole purpose for existence was to kill enemies of the crown
pics when i get it in couple weeks

 

[Thuer]

OK. I am going to a meeting whithin a few minutes. But I have placed this pictures before.

Here are a Colt Official Police with the MK IV in .38
The Fosbery made in 1906.

I have to make pics of the MK III, V and VI.

Later.

 

[Jack Flash]

... unfortunately here in canada prescribed antique revolvers carry a hefty premium because people are allowed to carry them anywhere a long gun can be carried. a webley mk 1 is going to cost about $1300 because it was manufactured before 1898 ...

I did a little looking on the internet and saw that the Webley Mk I Revolver was introduced in the black powder era. I'm sure we all know the .455 Webley Mk I Cartridge was originally a black powder round.

I'm shocked that the going rate for a Webley Mk I Revolver is so high! Only a few years back, someone on this Forum was asking if $100 was too much for one! (He was also in Canada, IIRC).

Thuer, thank you for the pictures, and congratulations on having such a fine specimen of the Webley-Fosbery in your collection.

 

[kamloops67]

I did a little looking on the internet and saw that the Webley Mk I Revolver was introduced in the black powder era. I'm sure we all know the .455 Webley Mk I Cartridge was originally a black powder round.

I'm shocked that the going rate for a Webley Mk I Revolver is so high! Only a few years back, someone on this Forum was asking if $100 was too much for one! (He was also in Canada, IIRC).

Thuer, thank you for the pictures, and congratulations on having such a fine specimen of the Webley-Fosbery in your collection.

actually i was wrong about the 1300...there is a mk 1 for sale at 2000 converted to 45acp/moon clips.

 

[Jack Flash]

actually i was wrong about the 1300...there is a mk 1 for sale at 2000 converted to 45acp/moon clips.

I may have seen that or a similar one for sale on-line. Talk about an ill-advised conversion!

 

[kamloops67]

OK. I am going to a meeting whithin a few minutes. But I have placed this pictures before.

Here are a Colt Official Police with the MK IV in .38
The Fosbery made in 1906.

I have to make pics of the MK III, V and VI.

Later.

the automatic revolver! ive never seen one in real life. thanks for showing it. looking forward to seeing the webleys.
do you have an opinion about enfield revolvers?

 

[kamloops67]

I may have seen that or a similar one for sale on-line. Talk about an ill-advised conversion!

yeah, ill say .a potential HAND grenade?
in the ad the guy says "...loaded appropriately for this revolver..."
still, why not just load 455?

 

[Jack Flash]

yeah, ill say .a potential HAND grenade?

That's what I was thinking... and they didn't do its collector's value any favors either.

 

[ldausmc1369]

Guys, have an unaltered Colt much the same as the one pictured. Can .455 Webley be safely fired in a .455 Eley? And, ideas to value? Have 15 original .455 Eley and am reluctant to fire even one. Thanks for any input.

 

[kamloops67]

yes 455 webley can safely be used in 455 eley . the 455 eley chamber is the length of the 455 mk 1 cartride, equal to the 455 colt. slightly longer than the mkII ctg. but all chamber and fire in the colts.
this is as i understand it but im still learning, anyone else want to add or amend?.
would you care to show some pics of your favourites ldausmc1369?

 

[Thuer]

You have to see the Enfield revolver in the period of time.
It fires the .38/200 round. Not that heavy load.
Germans did use the Enfield and the Webley with the 9mm cartridge.
They prepered the rim of the 9mm cartridge with a tool so that the cartridge was hanging with the rim in the cilinder. After a few shots the Enfield and Webley revolvers broke down.
The Germans trow them away afterwards.

I do like the .455 to the MK IV they are blackpowder revolvers. Aldo I did shot mild nitro loads with the MK III. The cilinder is thicker than the MK II.
The MK VI is suprisingly accurate even the Fosbery gives good shots.
It is fun to shoot on a row woodblocks with the Fosbery.

 

[Jack Flash]

yes 455 webley can safely be used in 455 eley . ... anyone else want to add or amend?...

This is correct. Ken Waters wrote an interesting piece on the cartridge.

Mr. Waters says "... when the British Army adopted the .455 as its official revolver cartridge in 1892, it was known as the .455 Revolver Mark I -- a black powder round with a .88-inch long case."

Mr. Waters goes on to say that the smokeless version of the Mk I on the civilian market was designated ".455 Colt" by American and Canadian ammo manufacturers, while the English firm Eley designated it the ".455 Eley".

With the advent of smokeless powder, the British Army took advantage of it for an updated load for the Mk I cartridge. However, they later determined that smokeless would burn more efficiently in a smaller case. So they shortened the case and designated this new version the ".455 Revolver Mk II". This became generally known as the ".455 Webley Mk II". Naturally, the Mk II could also be fired in any revolver chambered for the smokeless Mk I round. It would be a big mistake to try to fire it in a black powder revolver!

From a different resource: Cartridges of the World --
"The .455 Colt is nothing more than the Colt commercial designation of the .455 Revolver Mk I in a somewhat improved loading."

So it's safe to say
The smokeless versions of the .455 Revolver Mk I, .455 Webley Mk I, .455 Colt, and .455 Eley are equivalent.

Naturally, you would never want to fire any of these in a revolver manufactured to use black powder only.
When in doubt, don't do it!

 

[ldausmc1369]

Thanks! Mine is a Colt New Service? I'll post some pics when I get the chance later on today or tomorrow.

 

[kamloops67]

You have to see the Enfield revolver in the period of time.
It fires the .38/200 round. Not that heavy load.
Germans did use the Enfield and the Webley with the 9mm cartridge.
They prepered the rim of the 9mm cartridge with a tool so that the cartridge was hanging with the rim in the cilinder. After a few shots the Enfield and Webley revolvers broke down.
The Germans trow them away afterwards.

I do like the .455 to the MK IV they are blackpowder revolvers. Aldo I did shot mild nitro loads with the MK III. The cilinder is thicker than the MK II.
The MK VI is suprisingly accurate even the Fosbery gives good shots.
It is fun to shoot on a row woodblocks with the Fosbery.

interesting how the germans used the english revolvers, why not? its like a bic ,toss it when it stops working.
ive seen some 8mm lebel revolvers come up from time to time as well. those french guns are not very pretty though... but they still sell for a good buck

 

[kamloops67]

This is correct. Ken Waters wrote an interesting piece on the cartridge.

Mr. Waters says "... when the British Army adopted the .455 as its official revolver cartridge in 1892, it was known as the .455 Revolver Mark I -- a black powder round with a .88-inch long case."

Mr. Waters goes on to say that the smokeless version of the Mk I on the civilian market was designated ".455 Colt" by American and Canadian ammo manufacturers, while the English firm Eley designated it the ".455 Eley".

With the advent of smokeless powder, the British Army took advantage of it for an updated load for the Mk I cartridge. However, they later determined that smokeless would burn more efficiently in a smaller case. So they shortened the case and designated this new version the ".455 Revolver Mk II". This became generally known as the ".455 Webley Mk II". Naturally, the Mk II could also be fired in any revolver chambered for the smokeless Mk I round. It would be a big mistake to try to fire it in a black powder revolver!

From a different resource: Cartridges of the World --
"The .455 Colt is nothing more than the Colt commercial designation of the .455 Revolver Mk I in a somewhat improved loading."

So it's safe to say
The smokeless versions of the .455 Revolver Mk I, .455 Webley Mk I, .455 Colt, and .455 Eley are equivalent.

Naturally, you would never want to fire any of these in a revolver manufactured to use black powder only.
When in doubt, don't do it!

thanks, thats the most concise explanation ive read yet.

 

[Thuer]

Here are the French model 1892 and the Swiss model 1882.
Both have the Warnantlock. The Swiss has the Abadie safety. When you open the loadinggate the sear will be pressed in the hammer. So the tip of the trigger wont touch it. The action will spin the cilinder so you can unload the revolver very fast.

You see the lock of the Swiss wit the Abadie safety in work.

Still do not have time to make good pictures of my Webley's.

This are old pic's of an presentation I made about revolver safety's.

 

[kamloops67]

Here are the French model 1892 and the Swiss model 1882.
Both have the Warnantlock. The Swiss has the Abadie safety. When you open the loadinggate the sear will be pressed in the hammer. So the tip of the trigger wont touch it. The action will spin the cilinder so you can unload the revolver very fast.

You see the lock of the Swiss wit the Abadie safety in work.

Still do not have time to make good pictures of my Webley's.

This are old pic's of an presentation I made about revolver safety's.

very nice thuer, you have a magnificent collection of european revolvers!
had the change been made to smokeless yet? what calibre were these offered in 8mm for french i think, what did the swiss use?

 

[Thuer]

The Swiss uses 7 mm Swiss. It is model 1882 so it was blackpowder. You can take the lock apart whithout any tools. You start with the mainspring and then you can take out everthing else. Put back together in a eyewinck.