Concealed Carry Comfort

[Model 15-4ever]

With terminal ballistics evidently being a consideration for you, then why do you like .380 ACP pistols and prefer them over .38 j-frames? If it's because 5 shots are not deemed sufficient, then a 9mm pocket pistol can be used instead of a .380 pistol -- in order to have superior terminal performance without sacrificing much in carrying comfort.

It's a multi-factor analysis and folks will arrive at varying decisions according to personal preference, which is fine. I think four factors sum it all up: Reliabilty, Shootability, Carryabilty, and Cartridge/Capacity adequate for the perceived threat.

Traditionally, for many people in most circumstances, the S&W J frame .38 Special fits the bill the best. It was for me for many many years. My point was stated that the .38 is enough. In the same circumstances my view is that .380 is enough.

I prefer the .380 Auto now because the guns are reliable; I shoot it faster and more accurately than the snub; being armed for duty with a pistol now, carrying a pistol off-duty or as a backup is more intuituive than a revolver; the .380 pistol carries flatter and more conceable; and .380 is plenty of cartridge for what I use it for and a magazine reload carries better than a speedloader and is faster.

The OP was asking about civilian carry. Off-duty LE has a moral and often legal obligation to intervene in criminal incidents if reasonable under the circumstances to do so. Often that means 1) carrying a gun off-duty when you might otherwise not, and 2) carrying a bigger or more capable handgun than would be necessary if you were non-LE. It also may mean having more than 5-10 shots available for whatever gun the LEO is carrying off-duty. Non-LE has no obligation to intervene in other people's woes, and in many circumstances it would not be safe or advisable to do so. Which is a whole other off-topic I'm not trying to start a discussion about... just pointing out the basic differences in approach.

With 9mm guns you are getting into larger and heavier and bulkier guns - of varying degrees - and they are not a direct comparison to the S&W J frame or .380 pistol, and require a more dedicated effort to conceal and carry.

Pocket 9mm guns. The only ones actually small enough to fit in a front pants pocket are the Kahr PM9 and the Kimber Solo. Both have sharp recoil and poor practical accuracy (in my hands and everyone else I've seen shooting them), and have proven neither reliable nor ergonomically friendly in my observations. That's enough to disqualify them for me. Of the major PDs with armorer programs and policies, I'm not aware of any that authorizes those two guns (and I know of a couple that have tested and specifically disallowed them on reliabilty issues). As far as "superior terminal performance", 9mm loads chronographed and tested in ballistic media out of these mini guns are pretty much the ballistic equivalent of the .38 snub... without the reliability.

I have used bigger but still thin and well-engineered 9mm pistols such as the S&W Shield, Glock 43 and Kel-Tec PF9 and they are good choices if you are carrying IWB or such. They are favorites of mine. But they don't quite pocket carry well, whereas the S&W J frame and many .380 autos do very nicely.

Whatever you choose, practice with it realistically. Be safe.

 

[psjoe]

That video is scary. I pocket carry in a galco, was a 442 but now it's a 640 ND. I don't find the weight an issue, I am 160 and 5'10".

The huge benefit of pocket carry is that you can have your hand in your pocket inconspicuously on your weapon ready to go. I bet most guys tend to place your dominant hand in your pocket naturally.

 

[Wise_A]

That video is scary.

That video is reality. It's what a lot of people already know. This is a thing that happens.

The take-away is that those two weren't living in that reality. They are not armed citizens (which is not the same as having a gun or a knife). The guy is still looking straight ahead when he gets socked in the back of the head. I can tell you exactly what he's thinking, because I've thought it too. And I'm sure most of you have.

"Man, I am scared ****less and want to react, but I don't want to look racist."

I've acted and taken the heat for it--and been vindicated. If you're dating someone and they're going to criticize you for keeping them safe, they're not worth dating, dudes.

And it's utter BS. The long and short of it is that society is telling you that you're reacting a certain way because of race. That those guys behind you are different from you, and that's why the hair on the back of your neck is standing up, but you have to hide that reaction, because racism is so taboo. The reality is that you know that a group of people approaching that close from the rear is a big, flashing, neon warning sign: DANGER! It wouldn't matter if those guys were black or white or brown or green.

You learned about bullies in high school, right? I bet they didn't act very different. And instinctively, you can feel something is off. Normal people maintain space. Groups maintain distance between groups ahead of them. You know the cadences of normal human speech--even dialects and accents foreign to you--and you can tell when they're talking about something to disguise what they're planning. Even deep down in the most primitive portion of your ape brain, you have an understanding of predatory behavior.

The "reasonable person" would dismiss all that. Which is unfortunate, because it reinforces poor survival tactics. An uninitiated, "reasonable person" only sees the fight after the punch. In actual fact, the fight started long before the tape did.

The woman wakes up first. Which is natural, women get taught early on that packs of young men are bad news. Still way too late, and not even a full second before the first blow comes.

The guy gets socked pretty good and knocked around. They attack him first because he's most likely to be a problem if they don't deal with him early. He goes down.

The woman fights back. Good on her--she's not standing around wringing her hands, she's an active ally. Yeah, I know we're men, we want to protect our women, but the fact of the matter is that in a fight, we can't afford to hold a portion of our force back. A better move would have been to call 911 immediately, but she did something. And doing something now is better than doing the best thing two minutes later.

Unfortunately, she gets knocked down and freezes. The guy gets stomped, but he keeps fighting. His head gets laid open pretty good--you can see blood pouring down his face. He winds up getting stomped by multiple attackers, on the ground, against a wall. This is a classic lethal situation. He could have been killed very easily. But he fights his way back up and out of that position.

Better moves? Get the cell out, thumb 911, and tell the date to call for the police. Don't let her go hunting for her phone, that just sparks a discussion--force the action. Push her out in front, turn around, and get ready for a fight that you're 100% guaranteed to lose, but one you might survive. If he was armed, I would suggest getting a hand on it, but not drawing. Drawing without an overt threat is called aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. A citizen of the armed lifestyle would understand the threat, but the 12 dopes on the jury won't. And you can bet that that group of predators would turn lamb and be on the phone to the cops themselves if you drew on them.

Point is, get the police rolling, and let the would-be attackers that they're not going to win for free. An expression I always liked from the old time cowboy stories was "he sold his life dearly". At worst, you're going to give them some pause and avoid wasting time having to turn around--interrupt their OODA loop. Your goal is to get ready for the fight, and broadcast the message that it's not gonna be fun or easy. Once they understand that the police are coming, that their prey is not going to be taken by surprise, and that they're going to be facing someone totally prepared to gouge out an eyeball or two, the arithmetic changes for them.

Even better, don't take a walk in a tunnel like that. Holy hell, I have no idea why urban planners build those bloody things.

 

[otasan56]

I have never found any gun, with any IWB holster to be comfortable, in any way!

For me, a Galco Concealable holster, or a Galco FLETCH, if you need retention, is hard to beat! Both are OWB, real leather, high-ride, stable, and lay flat against your body. Now that's comfort! I even forget I'm wearing it, even with a medium size pistol. Large pistols, still very comfortable, but due to the weight, you'll know it's there.

I know about this IWB discomfort. I wear my G17 in an OWB Bianchi 4/4L holster, and it is very comfortable.

 

[kmanick]

How would you conceal a double stack 9mm in South Fl during the summer. Avg. temp is 90+ with high humidity. I can just manage to pocket carry a Shield in cargo shorts but a double stack is too thick and heavy. G42 works for dockers.

9C in a stealthgear "mini" IWB works. It's a little bit heavy compared to my Shield but I like the extra rounds and that I am 40% more accurate with the 9C than I am with the shield

 

[otasan56]

The inventor of second chance vests, Richard Davis, was himself involved in a defensive situation wherein his 6 shot revolver ran dry and his attackers shot him.

I know Richard and I'm glad he survive his attack. He went on to invent soft, concealable body armor, and he went on to host a big bowling pin shooting match every June for decades. I went to his Second Chance pin shoot from 1989-2003. I managed to win the Winchester Grand Championship OSS shootoff in 1990, winning $5,000.

 

[HorizontalMike]

The inventor of second chance vests, Richard Davis, was himself involved in a defensive situation wherein his 6 shot revolver ran dry and his attackers shot him.

I know Richard and I'm glad he survive his attack. He went on to invent soft, concealable body armor, and he went on to host a big bowling pin shooting match every June for decades. I went to his Second Chance pin shoot from 1989-2003. I managed to win the Winchester Grand Championship OSS shootoff in 1990, winning $5,000.

And your point is...?

 

[fatcat3]

If I thought I seriously needed two revolvers to go someplace, I'd have to seriously reconsider going there!

ad to that 2 knives, flash lights, 2 types of non lethal , cordage, fire starter, rations, etc.

 

[diyj98]

ad to that 2 knives, flash lights, 2 types of non lethal , cordage, fire starter, rations, etc.

inflatable life raft, first aid kit, ham radio...

 

[J.R.Bauer]

ad to that 2 knives, flash lights, 2 types of non lethal , cordage, fire starter, rations, etc.

Bennett Survival Rifle.
John

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[J.R.Bauer]

Henry Survival Rifle.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[mnshutterbug]

Just to add to the discussion re: number of bullets sometimes needed, a few weeks ago an ISIS inspired jerk started attacking shoppers at a mall in St. Cloud, MN. Luckily, there was an armed off duty police officer on scene and when the attacker confronted the officer, he was ordered to drop the knives. Instead he came after the officer and it took 6 shots to finally end his life. The officer actually shot 10 times with 6 hitting their mark. The attacker actually kept getting up until the fatal 6th shot. If the officer would have had just a revolver he'd probably have also been stabbed. Surprisingly, the attacker was brandishing steak knives so even though 10 people were stabbed, all were released from the hospital the next day. I realize that 3 shots are the norm but there are always the exceptions. I could find no info re: the weapon the officer used.

 

[Mister X]

Just to add to the discussion re: number of bullets sometimes needed, a few weeks ago an ISIS inspired jerk started attacking shoppers at a mall in St. Cloud, MN. Luckily, there was an armed off duty police officer on scene and when the attacker confronted the officer, he was ordered to drop the knives. Instead he came after the officer and it took 6 shots to finally end his life. The officer actually shot 10 times with 6 hitting their mark. The attacker actually kept getting up until the fatal 6th shot. If the officer would have had just a revolver he'd probably have also been stabbed. Surprisingly, the attacker was brandishing steak knives so even though 10 people were stabbed, all were released from the hospital the next day. I realize that 3 shots are the norm but there are always the exceptions. I could find no info re: the weapon the officer used.

A very valid point and something to take into consideration.

However, many people who switch their revolver out for an autoloader opt for a 6 or 7 round single stack. Once the shooting started, there would have been no opportunity for a reload. And keep in mind the officer was pursuing and intentionally engaging the suspect. Proactive vs Reactive(the guy getting attacked in the store.)

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq7VwIj5TU[/ame]

 

[Brasky]

Too small, too big, too heavy, too light... people discover they have made a mistake after purchase for all sorts of reasons.

I believe the most common mistake, speaking from personal experience and those I know, is buying guns that are larger/heavier than folks are willing to carry. "What's the point" of a carry gun left at home?

I agree it's a mistake to not adequately train, whether for a gun to carry of home defense. That said, countless untrained inexperienced people successfully use guns to defend themselves. That's not an endorsement for a lack of training, just reality.

I find size and weight of the gun are small factors and the big factors are the accessories that go with. A good belt and the proper holster make for a comfortable carry set up.

Just Saturday I comfortably rode a horse with a Glock 17 carried appendix IWB. My friend (similar in height and weight) had to remove his LCP from appendix IWB as it was causing him discomfort.

Most who have resorted to tiny guns usually have done one of the following:

-wear pants too tight
-wear a crappy belt that bends easy
-wear a shirt that is too tight
-haven't tried enough holsters

My belt is a two-ply leather belt that doesn't bend. My holster is a Desantis sof-tuk that has adjustable cant and the cant adjusts with me as I stand up, sit down, etc. I purchased my pants one waist size larger to accommodate a firearm. This combo allows the Glock to sit flat against my body and not protrude outward or jab my ribs