Concealed Carry/Mass Shooter Thoughts

[Kid44]

I would assume a large percentage of us on this forum excercise their right to carry concealed, as do I. Today's
"mass shooter" seems to make their weapon of choice an AR type rifle, not only that many are now wearing tactical
gear, including body armor, among other things. Would I go up against a shooter with an AR and tactical gear
with my 1911, not unless I was standing right next to him/her. I would be heading for cover just like everyone else at the mall, park, diner, nightclub name the place. By the time police arrive they really have no idea who the shooter is,
that makes anyone with a gun in their hand a target for them. Should the shooter come looking for more victims like so many of them do my 1911 may greet them, but by them possibly wearing a vest a shot needs to be precise and delivered quickly. I will always carry, but the above scenario makes me rethink how I may go about things.

 

[Frailer]

Fortunately very few of us will ever be in such a situation, but I think it's wise to consider how one might respond.

I do carry routinely, but for the protection of myself and those I love. I am not a police officer nor a superhero. That said, I know there are moral and psychological repercussions to not responding when one has the opportunity and capability to do so.

I practice and compete with my carry gun regularly, so I feel I have a good grasp of my abilities. If I have a shot that I know I can make without endangering myself or others, I will take it. If I don't, my first responsibility—at this phase of my life—is to get my wife and myself home safely.

Others may have different views, and I respect that.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have a serious problem with the fact that only about 5 to 8 percent of CCW permit holders actually DO have their gun on them when out in public where they might be able to stop a criminal if needed.
CARRY YOUR DAMNED GUNS, people !

 

[pantannojack]

"When your shift is over, Go Home Alive."

 

[Echo40]

What people often fail to realize is that all a ballistics vest stops is the projectile itself, not the energy it transfers, ergo getting shot while wearing a ballistics vest is still going to be extremely painful and depending on how powerful the cartridge is, may still result in fractured ribs.
Furthermore, ballistics vests are typically only rated to stop a single shot in a specific spot. Afterwards, that spot has been structurally compromised because the kevlar is all torn up and/or ceramic plates have been broken, ergo subsequent shots become increasingly likely to penetrate the armor.

Steel Plates potentially offer greater protection because they can practically hold out indefinitely against anything they're rated to stop without structurally failing, but spauling/shrapnel can be just as deadly under sustained fire, because once the outer coating has become compromised, the lead shrapnel that splatters on contact with the steel could easily result in serious injury.
However, I'm never heard of a shooter wearing a steel plate, and for good reason. They're extremely heavy and obviously cannot be easily concealed beneath ordinary clothing.

Besides, a vest/plate only protects the torso, so in a situation in which you're faced with a shooter wearing a vest, you can still shoot them elsewhere and potentially incapacitate them. For example, a solid shot to the pelvic girdle will bring anybody down and keep them there.
It's also important to keep in mind that in most cases, these psycho shooters are pansies who will off themselves the moment they're seriously injured, so there's a good change that all you have to do is hit them, then they'll finish themselves off.

 

[cd228]

I'd recommend looking in to the actual DOJ data, not just what is show on TV. According to a study by the US Secret Service, https://www.secretservice.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2023-01/usss-ntac-maps-2016-2020.pdf, 74% of incidents used pistols, thought some used both pistol and rifle. Additionally, only 10 mass shooter actually wore body armor. That said, if you are involved in an incident, I'd recommend getting out of the area. As mentioned, you don't want to be mistaken for the shooter either by LE or other armed citizens. Also, there is the danger of accidentally hitting a panicked individual. As for the armored threat, the failure drill should be part of your repertoire.

 

[old tanker]

One thing's for sure, if you shoot at the guy and it's not enough, you will have his full attention. It would be prudent to be behind something that will stop rifle bullets. If he's wearing anything that even looks tactical, assume it will stop pistol bullets and pick your point of aim accordingly.

 

[S&W629]

I have thought about the scenirio....that occurred in Allen Tex mall parking lot....every time I am sitting in my truck/car....waiting as the wife shops. And it brings on the moral dilemma "what is the right thing to do?"

When I am sitting, watching, the people around me...coming and going....I ask my self...what will I do when I see an individual...park....step out ..look around in an odd manner....then reach in and pull out a weapon...be it a long arm or handgun.....what is my moral responsibility.....Part of me says ...draw and confront....other part says..nunya.....I have convinced myself.....if I am close enough to speak....I will confront...and react to their reaction....

 

[heeter3]

Spot on Kid44 very good analysis.

 

[jbull380]

Carry what you train with, train with what you carry. Often.

 

[biku324]

I have thought about the scenirio....that occurred in Allen Tex mall parking lot....every time I am sitting in my truck/car....waiting as the wife shops. And it brings on the moral dilemma "what is the right thing to do?"

When I am sitting, watching, the people around me...coming and going....I ask my self...what will I do when I see an individual...park....step out ..look around in an odd manner....then reach in and pull out a weapon...be it a long arm or handgun.....what is my moral responsibility.....Part of me says ...draw and confront....other part says..nunya.....I have convinced myself.....if I am close enough to speak....I will confront...and react to their reaction....

Confronting someone in the act of murder is a final folly. Either shoot when you have a clear, certain shot, or stay out of his line of sight and escape. Few could successfully do the former, but nearly all could do the latter.

 

[SchemaEnigma]

…if I am close enough to speak....I will confront...and react to their reaction …

If by "confront" you mean speak or shout to them, that is foolish, IMO.

If he is in the act of shooting others, and you are going to try to stop him, just aim and shoot. No "confront" first and then try to react to a guy already shooting.

I'd have to be very close and behind cover and not in his direct view before I would try to take out an active AR shooter with my handgun.

 

[BSA1]

Up until 2017 I believed my 5 round .38 Special Snubbie was all the gun I needed. Then a nearby mass workplace shooting and followed by a mental case pointing a rifle at passing cars a couple of weeks later made me realize the snubbie was not up to either incident. I reevaluated and upgraded to a SIG P239 9mm then a few months later to my current edc the Beretta 92.

While I own several 1911's I do not believe it gives me a good weight vs. ammo capacity. Only 8 rounds of 45 vs. 16 rounds in the 92 with approximately the same weight of gun.

We know from the previous mass shootings police response is slow and some departments response is disorganized. We know even when a Officer is present he may not intervene. (The Coward of Broward). We know even when multiple armed officers are present they may not intervene for a long time period. (Las Vegas).

So my assumption is I am on my own.

We do know that often when the shooter meets resistance they stop their attack and some choose suicide. So even non-lethal hits may cause the attacker to stop.

My main tactic is defense in a position that offers some cover or concealment. My high capacity 9mm allows me to use suppressive fire allowing people time to escape. With a spare magazine I have over 30 rounds immediately available to me.

Whether I would change my position to be able to take out the shooter is something I might do but it just depends on the location and circumstances.

"Pocket Carry" seems to be big fad at the moment with people bragging about carrying a small J-Frame revolver or .380 or 9mm semiautomatic in their front pant pocket. Both guns have small ammunition capacity, typically 5 or 6 rounds with no reload or spare magazine. I can't help but wonder if they can hit a man size target past 21 feet with a small gun with small sights or if they even practice regularly.

Out of long habit I am always evaluating the environment I am in. I check out the parking lot, the front of the business, the inside of the business, the people inside, defensive positions and the parking lot when I leave the store. I drive very defensively to try to avoid road rage.

 

[murphydog]

I think there is not a single answer. Carry, practice, be in condition yellow and think about the local "what ifs" near to you.

Just as food for thought, I'm sure the Indiana mall food court young man probably practiced the above well.

 

[smoothshooter]

Up until 2017 I believed my 5 round .38 Special Snubbie was all the gun I needed. Then a nearby mass workplace shooting and followed by a mental case pointing a rifle at passing cars a couple of weeks later made me realize the snubbie was not up to either incident. I reevaluated and upgraded to a SIG P239 9mm then a few months later to my current edc the Beretta 92.

While I own several 1911's I do not believe it gives me a good weight vs. ammo capacity. Only 8 rounds of 45 vs. 16 rounds in the 92 with approximately the same weight of gun.


We know from the previous mass shootings police response is slow and some departments response is disorganized. We know even when a Officer is present he may not intervene. (The Coward of Broward). We know even when multiple armed officers are present they may not intervene for a long time period. (Las Vegas).

So my assumption is I am on my own.

We do know that often when the shooter meets resistance they stop their attack and some choose suicide. So even non-lethal hits may cause the attacker to stop.

My main tactic is defense in a position that offers some cover or concealment. My high capacity 9mm allows me to use suppressive fire allowing people time to escape. With a spare magazine I have over 30 rounds immediately available to me.


Whether I would change my position to be able to take out the shooter is something I might do but it just depends on the location and circumstances.

"Pocket Carry" seems to be big fad at the moment with people bragging about carrying a small J-Frame revolver or .380 or 9mm semiautomatic in their front pant pocket. Both guns have small ammunition capacity, typically 5 or 6 rounds with no reload or spare magazine. I can't help but wonder if they can hit a man size target past 21 feet with a small gun with small sights or if they even practice regularly.

Out of long habit I am always evaluating the environment I am in. I check out the parking lot, the front of the business, the inside of the business, the people inside, defensive positions and the parking lot when I leave the store. I drive very defensively to try to avoid road rage.

"Suppressive fire ??" In a large gathering of people??
The phrase " every fired bullet has a lawyer attached to it " comes immediately to mind.
What quality of defense attorneys will the value of your house and retirement assets buy to keep you out of prison if you hit innocent bystanders?
And then there will be the years of civil suits.

 

[Rpg]

Unfortunately, most folks who carry are carrying a very small handgun. Places such as shopping malls or movie theaters involve much greater distances than the vast majority of folks have ever attempted.

The 380 Bodyguard, and the little Ruger semi automatics are examples of guns that are too small for most to hit anything beyond 10 yards. This is also true of most J frame revolver

All these little guns are great for in-house applications where distances rarely exceed 7 yards. The distances involved in shopping center or movie theater shootings is substantially greater.

I can make those shots with a 1911, a service sized Beretta, a K frame Smith, a full sized Sig, or a Glock M17 or 19 or several Colt revolvers.

I wouldn't even attempt a 25 yard shot at a bad guy with the 380 bodyguard or the little Rugers. I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself by making ineffectual noise.

 

[hyena]

I consider myself an average shot. I see people at the range who are far worse than I, and I see some who are better. My usual carry is a Bodyguard .380, in my pocket. I shoot it every time I go to the range, and every time I practice with it out to 25 yards, shooting the man size targets. I have no problem keeping my rounds within the torso. It took practice to get to that point. I have been shooting handguns for 50 years, but if I can do it, anybody can, with practice. I was not gifted with innate hand eye coordination.

For anybody about to respond that in a shooting I'll wish I had more gun, you are correct. I'll wish I had my 30-30 Winchester. But it won't fit in my pocket.

Sincere hats off to those of you who are willing to conceal carry full size guns. I'm not.

 

[Harmonica]

1 - there might be other CC people around, and they, also, would probably not know who the shooter is
2 - might be armed security or police on site
3 - if it is a mall/etc like the last shooting, by the time, you:
--a. realize a shooting is occurring
--b. think about a plan
--c. find the shooter and then engage
----after all of that, the police might be nearby
...it's not a tv show...it could be very dangerous for many reasons
--remember the Arvada shooting? the good guy got the bad guy and a cop shot the good guy, who was NOT a direct threat at all
..I remember an incident where a plain clothes cop was wrestling with the bad guy, and a cop shot the good guy [ IIRC ]
---now, I am not bad mouthing the police--far from it....I'm just pointing out how these situations are very dynamic
.

 

[Harmonica]

I have a serious problem with the fact that only about 5 to 8 percent of CCW permit holders actually DO have their gun on them when out in public where they might be able to stop a criminal if needed.
CARRY YOUR DAMNED GUNS, people !

I'm well over 50 years old ....and I grew up in not the nicest of places..and have never seen a crime in progress.....
--like Frailer said, the chances of a CC stopping a crime, is very low...does it happen, sure.....
--chances of seeing a crime in progress is very low
----then the chances of being able to use your firearm is lower --depending on the circumstances
ie: --for a robbery, etc would you pull out your firearm if there are many bystanders around? if the robber is near bystanders? etc

 

[Farmer17]

Hologram sites are a game changer for small gun accuracy. My Sig 365 with Holosun optical sight will make an average handgun shooter look like a pro.